Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

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fowlman01 said:
I will try this again and post it by itself so that it does not get lost.

Did the Dutch Standard for males ever call for lacing in the chest of the male? yes/no.

Walt
Click to expand...
I have not read anything to say that the Dutch called for laced breasted roos. Other than before the standard was set and the Barnevelder was just a mix of breeds between 1900 and 1920's. All I have ever read is that the British, Germans and Australians changed their standards to laced...not black like the original Dutch birds.

I sent you some old articles that mention this and one that talks about the issue as far back as the 1920's . I also sent you an email that Mr. Netland sent me from the Dutch Club regarding breast lacing...with pics. They said they spent years researching this issue. I hope you hear back from the Dutch club on the subject.

You might also want to read the link to the Barnevelder article on the history of the Barnevelder that I posted. It talks about a family that has bred Barnevelders for nearly 4 generations.

Trisha
 
mountainvieworchards said:
Trisha

Is there any way you can make those articles and documents available to for the rest of us to read?

Thanks
Andy

 
Click to expand...


I will try, they are on my old computer...that room doesn't have AC...it is probably about 100 in there right now. On the bright side, I got 12 eggs today from 20 hens. It is 114 today. I haven't lost any to heat this year either.

Trisha
 
tls_ranch said:
...

Melanizers are very important to keep the hens double lacing clean and defined. A cock that shows too much red in the hackle, saddle and breast will most likely produce a female that is poorly laced with too much red in her neck and with a weak inner lace. If you want laced breasted males ( lack of melanizers) and females with clean and defined lacing ( with melanizers) then you will most likely be in a constant state of too much or too little. In my opinion based on what I've read, clearly laced breasted males cause the females color to go way " out of balance". This is a simple way of saying it.

...
Click to expand...
this is not quite correct,
ground colour in the chest of males is usually caused by presence of restrictors (with or without melanisers) - the single laced Wyandotte has at least one same melaniser as the barnevelder (Ml).

it is the presence of the restrictor which causes the lacing on the male chest in the case of Wyandottes (Co) - but there is more than one restrictor documented/researched,

mahogany (Mh) is also a mild restrictor and is involved with the colour of the barnie, this is what IMO causes the ground colour to show (albeit just in the center of the males chest) in the males and he will still sire double laced females.
this is why IMO the genetic reason why the germans have settled on their standard for males - which is indeed a thickly laced male chest
you guys can check it out here:
http://www.sv-barnevelder.de/?seite=rasseartikel
home page here:
http://www.sv-barnevelder.de/?seite=start

but, just like there is more than one restrictor, there are multiple red enhancers (other than Mahogany - which is the restrictor).

but have to say it again, don't just focus on the chest of the male;, the hackle, saddle and coverts also play a role. and don't focus on which country has got it 'right' or 'wrong' comparing pics from one country to another is a bit futile IMO if you don't step back and take a real big holistic view of the birds they have (genetic make up) and the standard they have.
 
One more genetic point.



"Genetically, the double-laced feather pattern phenotype has been shown to depend upon homozygosity of both the linked eumelanin extension melanotic (Ml/Ml) and the feather pattern arranging gene (Pg/Pg). In the Barnevelder (large fowl), the pattern is expressed on a brown (e^b/e^b) background. Only the females express the double-laced pattern, whereas the males are melanized black-breasted reds."

^ USA (2012-01-09). ""Carefoot WC"[Author] - PubMed - NCBI". Ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. Retrieved 2012-02-19.


I will try posting more later.


Trisha
 
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tls_ranch said:
Ok, color wise I know my birds. I have spent 5 years looking a pics and talking "barnie". I've hatched 100's and 100's of chicks over the last 5 years. I hatched well over 200+ this year and will probably hatch 100+ this fall. By the way...hatching not for profit, but to improve my flock. I rarely sell any chicks anymore or even started stock..most are eaten or practically given away.

My roos and hens still look like the stock they came from color wise other than a few slight changes in type and quality. Mixing the lines has brought out some hidden faults (already in the original lines though) and I have made some mistakes. But, breast color in the my males has always been "appears black".

This argument isn't new...it was even brought up 5 years ago on the Yahoo group. Most agreed back then to go with the solid black breast or with lacing so thick as to appear black. A few decided to try for "slightly laced". According to Mr. Netland even Horst said "don't worry the breast will appear to be black" or something like that. Not every feather red brown with a black edge. Not even the German lines look like that to me. Just get online and look for current show winners. No one publishes real books anymore...too much money. Most information is found on the Internet.

I did keep a roo with redder hackles and tiny amount of visible breast lacing on urging of the proponents of a "laced breasted roos". In one generation I ended up with much poor laced hens with peppering, poor inner lace and shafting. I have outcrossed and blended lines, but now I have all the traits I want...just not in one bird, LOL. So for the next 5 years, I hope to get all those traits in one bird and have make a lot more of them. But, I will stick to the darker males like the original stock I started with.

My birds are a blend of the 3 major bloodlines available here in the us. My blues have a drop of wyandotte blood, my "cornevelders" have a drop of Dark cornish. But both have been bred back so many times to pure barnies you would have a hard time picking them out of the pen of "pures". I have started a silver project...so I know what crossing a penciled breed does to a barnie...trust me it's not a Barnevelder despite the nice lacing on the breast of the one pullet I've kept out of about 50+ chicks so far.

I stare at my birds so much it bothers my family, so yes I know my birds.

Trisha
Click to expand...

Well it sounds like you are dedicated and I commend that! When there is a "drop" of this or that in a line, it is not the end of the world. You just have to find out what that "drop" will do to the genetic formula. When you get bad colored birds in the first generation, it does not mean that the next generation will also be poorly colored. This is where you should think out of the box of genetic formula's and do some seat of the pants testing. As you know your records have ot be very accurate and permanent marks like toe punches need to be used.

You can't look at your birds too much in my opinion. you are only seeing the presentation though, not everything it is carrying.
Walt
 
tls_ranch said:
One more genetic point.



"Genetically, the double-laced feather pattern phenotype has been shown to depend upon homozygosity of both the linked eumelanin extension melanotic (Ml/Ml) and the feather pattern arranging gene (Pg/Pg). In the Barnevelder (large fowl), the pattern is expressed on a brown (e^b/e^b) background. Only the females express the double-laced pattern, whereas the males are melanized black-breasted reds."

^ USA (2012-01-09). ""Carefoot WC"[Author] - PubMed - NCBI". Ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. Retrieved 2012-02-19.


I will try posting more later.


Trisha
Click to expand...
Carefoot did not segregate it out onto wildtype, over simplifying his results of a complex pattern
I think it would be crazy to believe that you get 3 genes with alleles homozygous state (2 of which are linked), and then bingo you have perfect lacing.
 
Last edited:
poultch said:
tls_ranch said:
...


Melanizers are very important to keep the hens double lacing clean and defined. A cock that shows too much red in the hackle, saddle and breast will most likely produce a female that is poorly laced with too much red in her neck and with a weak inner lace. If you want laced breasted males ( lack of melanizers) and females with clean and defined lacing ( with melanizers) then you will most likely be in a constant state of too much or too little. In my opinion based on what I've read, clearly laced breasted males cause the females color to go way " out of balance". This is a simple way of saying it.


...
Click to expand...

this is not quite correct,
ground colour in the chest of males is usually caused by presence of restrictors (with or without melanisers) - the single laced Wyandotte has at least one same melaniser as the barnevelder (Ml).

it is the presence of the restrictor which causes the lacing on the male chest in the case of Wyandottes (Co) - but there is more than one restrictor documented/researched,

mahogany (Mh) is also a mild restrictor and is involved with the colour of the barnie, this is what IMO causes the ground colour to show (albeit just in the center of the males chest) in the males and he will still sire double laced females.
this is why IMO the genetic reason why the germans have settled on their standard for males - which is indeed a thickly laced male chest
you guys can check it out here:
http://www.sv-barnevelder.de/?seite=rasseartikel
home page here:
http://www.sv-barnevelder.de/?seite=start

but, just like there is more than one restrictor, there are multiple red enhancers (other than Mahogany - which is the restrictor).

but have to say it again, don't just focus on the chest of the male;, the hackle, saddle and coverts also play a role. and don't focus on which country has got it 'right' or 'wrong' comparing pics from one country to another is a bit futile IMO if you don't step back and take a real big holistic view of the birds they have (genetic make up) and the standard they have.
Click to expand...


Thankyou for posting:)

I was going to post more about Mh and other modifiers, but thought to keep it simple. This also, points to why the silver double laced males we see pictures of are showing solid black breasts. You can't have red modifiers on a silver bird.


BREAST: Each feather reddish brown with a sharply defined lacing of lustrous, greenish black

This line of the APA standard still doesn't sound right or seems to match what the Germans are showing. It sounds like a Wyandotte with Co restrictors.


Trisha
 

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