Breeding for Size + or -

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

This came up on another topic and I thought I would throw it out here and get the opinion of more breeders.

I made the statement that is it easy to breed for an increase or decrease in the overall size of a bird.

One of the answers back was this.

No this is not true, it often takes years of dedicated line breeding to achieve a such thing. It takes alot of education and knowledge to do a such thing and be effective, sure any Joe can breed x with o and make them smaller, but very rarely does he make it bigger, and keep all the other traits the same or improved.

Other than it's very obvious as to the fact it takes time and generations to do it, and it doesn't have to be done by line breeding (all you have to do is introduce larger or smaller birds into your breeding program and that alone will change the size quickly)

That being said it's also obvious that you can't breed a 10 foot tall bird or Tyson would have already done it and made the single buffalo wing that feeds 10 people.

What are your thoughts about the difficulty level? Is it within the grasp of the average Joe or Jane?

Steve in NC​

 

[walkswithdog]

Steve, you know me - I'm actually a noob at doing other than working up a laying flock but I'm a third generation into learning more from this restarted flock.

One of my early goals was bigger birds. In general this entire generation of Rocks started larger, gained faster and are larger at 20 weeks than their Grandparents. Not a ton larger in the case of the pure birds, but 8% bigger at hatch and bigger at POL( point of lay).

The ones that were crossed to BA's (Black Australorps) or were a mix of Barred/Partridge were SIGNIFICANTLY HUGER (not a word but it works) some of the males competing in size with poults the same age for the first few months. I seriously freaked out over the size of them compared to their parents.

Now the Barred came from bigger and better lines. But the BA was just an average bird. Looking forward to seeing what Halo's lines does for the couple I'll keep.

But given the step up in both 2nd and 3rd gen from hatchery I can't say that it seems all that impossible or hard.

It might be if a breed is ALREADY at the high end of development, aka why no 10 ft chickens. If you're already at the high end for a species (like a large show or meat line) then I'd bet increasing it further would be difficult and incremental.

But then you're looking at apples and oranges. Undeveloped lines have LOTS of easy room to improve, and decades old well developed lines probably don't.

Still, it's not rocket science if it doesn't include color/type/standard. Size is more quantifiable, more visible, more easily measured. A male throwing lower wt chicks that then also don't grow as quickly as desired or attain proper wt by a given period isn't the one you want. Etc. Not real hard to weigh, define goals and time periods and sort the stock for the best gain in chicks and at POL for instance.

I don't retain a lot of interest in a 2year growth period. It's costly so POL is my goal period. If you had endless feed money then you have more room to press for growth aka Jersey Giants or Turkeys.

So I don't see where it's unattainable for most people who can use a scale, form goals and keep records, and pay attention.

 

[rancher hicks]

Please explain BA and POL. Thanks please consider newbies and old fogies.

 

[walkswithdog]

Quote:
Sorry Rancher.... headed off to edit.

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

That's a good point I hadn't thought of "if they are on the high end size wise" then you couldn't get to much more out of them.

Steve

 

[cybercat]

Steve it is in the range of everyone BUT it takes knowledge to do it. It is called selective breeding and it takes time and knowledge of what you want and what you got and how to breed up or down. One just can not take two chickens of the same breed and get larger or smaller. One must know the gentics behind them to make it work.

Unlike other animals, chickens have alot more variation in them. This makes it harder for the novice to get fast results. Those of us that have breeding background in many breeds have done alot of work and studying in genetics. Those just coming into breeding have not, so they will have to learn along the way. There is also another factor in all this in that for some breeding is a gift they can just look at an animal and know which one to mate it too for best results. For those that have that gift there innate sense takes over where knowledge for the rest of of us is concerned.

Breeding bigger or smaller is based on body types as well as bloodlines. In pure breeding it will take a bit longer to get there than with crossing out. But in pure breeding you know most of what you will end up with down the road. The easy way to breed up or down is to find a line that compliments your in that direction. Steady line breeding for a bit then outsourcing to a new roo from another line can really jump you program if you know that line or it can set you way back. This is why breeding is a science and good breeders do their research( which never stops).

 

[nicalandia]

breeding for size, has got to be the easiest thing.......or at least it should, why people think its hard? well, lets just say somebody want to make a BLR wyandotte a super size bird, well you all know how hard is to keep birds to standards......for me!!! Its goin to be easy, WHY? because I don´t want to have a breed, I just want to have SUPER SIZE chickens, I dont mind color or feather type, I will just pretend I am mother nature an cull all the chicks I think wont make larger chickens........so how you go about doing it? get the largest rooster you can find, the same goes for the hen, hatch as many eggs as possible, pic the tallest largest chicks, cull the rest(I give them to friends), repeat the proses utill you have a SUPER SIZE chicken

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

I agree 100% Cat, It does take time and knowledge but I think some people think it's akin to a black art done behind closed doors under a full moon.

Some are easy to breed towards and others not so easy - or more complicated might be the better word. For example size, breeding feathered legs into a non feathered line etc I would consider easy. Color genetics is a different animal and more difficult for me.

Steve

 

[Cuban Longtails]

There are some breeds with a very small genetic pool to pick from when it comes to bringing the size back up, on top of the fact that if you aren't selectively breeding for size along with everything else, they'll easily slip back down again. Cubalaya are a good example of this.

 

[nicalandia]

all it takes its a trained eye...if size is ALL you are after, not too long ago there was this guy who created a breed called White Sully, the roosters reached 20+ pounds, one of his roosters made it to the Guinness World Records as the heaviest rooster...they are now nowhere to be found, but i find them very easy to re create a monster chicken like that ..HOW? you might ask? well, you have to keep it simple and to the point

like this....

E/E,S/S,W+/W+,ID/ID,p+/p+/ with dominant White(I) and recessive white..
so a all white bird, with clean yellow shanks, single comb...nothing more simple than that...and thats my current progect