Broody hens conflict

[bohok]

WWYD?

I had a bantam Cochin go broody. A few days later, one of her sisters decided to join her. They sat on their eggs for 3+ weeks and hatched them all out together, living in a small broody box I made for them inside the coop. They got along beautifully and shared chicks no problem.

Well a couple days ago, about a week into the chicks hatching and them coparenting wonderfully, two things happened. First, the one that “joined” the broody party a few days late had a single poop full of small worms. (This might not be connected at all, and we’ve never had worm issues before, but worth mentioning. I have checked so many poops since then and seen no more but am treating the whole flock with an intense holistic regimen and will get fecal testing to see if I need chemical dewormers still, I wanted to avoid that with baby chicks if possible). She runs around with her wings fluffed out a bit when she gets out of the brooder which I think is normal broody behavior? She’s done it ever since being broody.

But the other huge thing is that the OG broody hen has started attacking her. At first it was only when the mamas went out to dust bath and stretch their legs and poop (they don’t like pooping in the broody box). But now it’s even in the broody box and she’s started attacking other hens too. In the box it puts the chicks in danger because there’s a ton of flailing and kicking.

So I finally separated them and removed the aggressive OG hen from the brooder box. Obviously she’s not happy but not as distressed as I thought she’d be.

Should I just keep her separated and hope she gets over it? Or should I split the chicks up between them somehow? I only have one brooder box and can’t build another right now.

 

[nuthatched]

Keep og hen separate.
Get a proper dewormer, natural remedies do not work and can harm your birds.

 

[bohok]

Keep og hen separate.
Get a proper dewormer, natural remedies do not work and can harm your birds.

Thanks for the feedback. I’ve used these natural remedies many times before for other things, and saved a bird’s life who likely had Coccinosis with them. Curious why you say that natural remedies can harm the birds? What remedies are you referring to?

 

[nuthatched]

Thanks for the feedback. I’ve used these natural remedies many times before for other things, and saved a bird’s life who likely had Coccidosis with them. Curious why you say that natural remedies can harm the birds? What remedies are you referring to?

Coccidosis is cured by reducing the amount of coccidia by reducing the available thiamine or by the use of sulfa drugs. Unless your remedy was in some way a thiamine inhibitor or a powerful antibiotic, it probably didn't help.
Anyone who tells you that 'natural' means that they're 100% safe, is at best misinformed, at worst willfully ignorant.

I'm all for homepathic and naturopathic medicines, but I get nervous when people have the impression that herbs can only help and never have side effects, or sprinkling fresh or dried herbs on the feed with give staggering health benefits.
Some very serious and life-threatening side effects can easily be caused by 'safe', 'natural' homeopathic remedies, no professional naturopathic physician or herbalist will tell you that they're completely safe, without chance of risk or side effects.
The compounds in plants can vary from the individual plant, one might have little compounds, its neighbor might be unusually high, that's why herb supplements are in ground or powder form, to average the dose. Not only can the plant vary wildly but the individual being treated can vary wildly in sensitivity to treatment.
Anyway, to the information.
For example:
Snake venom is completely natural, antivenom is a synthesized product.
ACV can block calcium absorption in low or moderate amounts and cause Acidosis in high amounts. It has no worming properties.
Garlic can be toxic by causing blood thinning and anemia and even deadly in low to moderate amounts, depending on the plant and variety. Especially in cats and birds. It's also been proven that the amounts it takes to start any mild worming is well above the threshold of toxic dose.
Oregano, the amounts of helpful components in oregano can vary. At best, they're eating italian flavored feed, at worst, all that is happening is continual feeding low, low doses of antibiotics. Natural or not, it's still antibiotics. If you ever need to use real medical grade oregano oil (the stuff that you'd use for infection) it may not work since there's a possibility of resistance from exposure. Though most feeds anymore have oregano in them, the meet the clamoring. Mine dose.
Oils of plants that contain Thymol (basil, oregano, rosemary, mints, etc) if dosed incorrectly can cause anemia, blood pressure problems, gastrointestinal issues, even miscarriage, etc.
Mint oils, can cause tachycardia, kidney problems, shallow breathing, neurological problems, and convulsions among others.
Ashwagandha, if you took to much of it, causes gastrointestinal upset and vomiting, but it’s also known to exacerbate thyroid issues, cause low blood pressure, and auto-immune disorders as well as being potentially harmful to the liver.
And those are just a couple of example.
As mentioned acv and garlic don't worm, and can be toxic.
Other popular natural remedies are: black walnut, lye, wormwood, parsley, cayenne pepper, pumpkin seeds.
Now, Black walnut, lye and wormwood are poisons, the efficacy threshold is well above the toxic threshold. The way some people avoid "chemical" products to feel safer but use poisons is a logic that I don't get.
Parsley and cayenne ( Capsicum) don't do a single thing, there are no worming properties in either and chili seeds can be toxic.
Pumpkin (squash, cucumbers etc) seeds do contain some anthelmintic properties, however it has to be seeds from non edible version, like an ornamental variety. Why? Because the operating anthelmintic is a very bitter poison. (Cucurbitacin). High amounts have been bred out of garden varieties of pumpkins etc centuries ago.
Now, I do think pumpkin seeds show promise, the active anthelmintic can be synthesized, made safer and dosed accurately.
Which brings up the next point:
The theory that "chemicals" are always bad for you and they're unsafe. It appears most don't quite grasp what a chemical is.
Which is just as false as the theory that "natural is safe".
Most chemicals in the medical field are the synthesized forms of chemical components found in nature, they've just been cleaned up and potency controlled.
Aspirin is synthesized compounds found in willow bark.
Digitalis, a popular heart medication, is the synthesized form of compounds found in foxglove and lillies of the valley. (It's also a poison, that's why the dose is controlled).
Permethrine is the synthesized bug killing compound that chrysanthemums have.
Stevia is the synthesized compounds of the Stevia plant.
There are thousands of examples.

 

[Henhouse Harlot]

Coccidosis is cured by reducing the amount of coccidia by reducing the available thiamine or by the use of sulfa drugs. Unless your remedy was in some way a thiamine inhibitor or a powerful antibiotic, it probably didn't help.
Anyone who tells you that 'natural' means that they're 100% safe, is at best misinformed, at worst willfully ignorant.

I'm all for homepathic and naturopathic medicines, but I get nervous when people have the impression that herbs can only help and never have side effects, or sprinkling fresh or dried herbs on the feed with give staggering health benefits.
Some very serious and life-threatening side effects can easily be caused by 'safe', 'natural' homeopathic remedies, no professional naturopathic physician or herbalist will tell you that they're completely safe, without chance of risk or side effects.
The compounds in plants can vary from the individual plant, one might have little compounds, its neighbor might be unusually high, that's why herb supplements are in ground or powder form, to average the dose. Not only can the plant vary wildly but the individual being treated can vary wildly in sensitivity to treatment.
Anyway, to the information.
For example:
Snake venom is completely natural, antivenom is a synthesized product.
ACV can block calcium absorption in low or moderate amounts and cause Acidosis in high amounts. It has no worming properties.
Garlic can be toxic by causing blood thinning and anemia and even deadly in low to moderate amounts, depending on the plant and variety. Especially in cats and birds. It's also been proven that the amounts it takes to start any mild worming is well above the threshold of toxic dose.
Oregano, the amounts of helpful components in oregano can vary. At best, they're eating italian flavored feed, at worst, all that is happening is continual feeding low, low doses of antibiotics. Natural or not, it's still antibiotics. If you ever need to use real medical grade oregano oil (the stuff that you'd use for infection) it may not work since there's a possibility of resistance from exposure. Though most feeds anymore have oregano in them, the meet the clamoring. Mine dose.
Oils of plants that contain Thymol (basil, oregano, rosemary, mints, etc) if dosed incorrectly can cause anemia, blood pressure problems, gastrointestinal issues, even miscarriage, etc.
Mint oils, can cause tachycardia, kidney problems, shallow breathing, neurological problems, and convulsions among others.
Ashwagandha, if you took to much of it, causes gastrointestinal upset and vomiting, but it’s also known to exacerbate thyroid issues, cause low blood pressure, and auto-immune disorders as well as being potentially harmful to the liver.
And those are just a couple of example.
As mentioned acv and garlic don't worm, and can be toxic.
Other popular natural remedies are: black walnut, lye, wormwood, parsley, cayenne pepper, pumpkin seeds.
Now, Black walnut, lye and wormwood are poisons, the efficacy threshold is well above the toxic threshold. The way some people avoid "chemical" products to feel safer but use poisons is a logic that I don't get.
Parsley and cayenne ( Capsicum) don't do a single thing, there are no worming properties in either and chili seeds can be toxic.
Pumpkin (squash, cucumbers etc) seeds do contain some anthelmintic properties, however it has to be seeds from non edible version, like an ornamental variety. Why? Because the operating anthelmintic is a very bitter poison. (Cucurbitacin). High amounts have been bred out of garden varieties of pumpkins etc centuries ago.
Now, I do think pumpkin seeds show promise, the active anthelmintic can be synthesized, made safer and dosed accurately.
Which brings up the next point:
The theory that "chemicals" are always bad for you and they're unsafe. It appears most don't quite grasp what a chemical is.
Which is just as false as the theory that "natural is safe".
Most chemicals in the medical field are the synthesized forms of chemical components found in nature, they've just been cleaned up and potency controlled.
Aspirin is synthesized compounds found in willow bark.
Digitalis, a popular heart medication, is the synthesized form of compounds found in foxglove and lillies of the valley. (It's also a poison, that's why the dose is controlled).
Permethrine is the synthesized bug killing compound that chrysanthemums have.
Stevia is the synthesized compounds of the Stevia plant.
There are thousands of examples.

Hello! I'd really love to see your sources on this stuff, I use both traditional and homeopathic medicines, and I'm always ready to learn. Could you please post some reference links? Thank you!

 

[nuthatched]

Hello! I'd really love to see your sources on this stuff, I use both traditional and homeopathic medicines, and I'm always ready to learn. Could you please post some reference links? Thank you!

Hi there, sorry for the late reply. the sources for garlic and acv etc are in an article I wrote last year. The other information is information I've soaked up over the years. I was raised with naturopathic/homeopathic medicine, they work but they aren't inherently safe. I'll dig you up some information.

 

[LaurenRitz]

Hi there, sorry for the late reply. the sources for garlic and acv etc are in an article I wrote last year. The other information is information I've soaked up over the years. I was raised with naturopathic/homeopathic medicine, they work but they aren't inherently safe. I'll dig you up some information.

Thank you! I tell people herbs are chrmicals too, they look at me like I've grown another head. And "perfectly safe, no side effects" makes me cringe. I stopped trying to explain this to people years ago.

 

[LaurenRitz]

Early in my journey I was convinced herbs were completely safe, no side effects or interactions, until it was demonstrated. I'm lucky I didn't end up in the hospital, a couple of times.

 

[Henhouse Harlot]

Well, you're very right about the danger, I'm not really sure how the idea of herbs/natural medicines being "safe" ever got started. Poison is about dosage, and even water, or oxygen can be toxic. I'd love to read those articles, hopefully they will be on your page!

 

[LaurenRitz]

I'm not really sure how the idea of herbs/natural medicines being "safe" ever got started. Poison is about dosage, and even water, or oxygen can be toxic. I'd love to read those articles, hopefully they will be on your page!

When I started studying (80's) I found that idea everywhere. I suspect it was partially self-taught people who distrusted the pharmaceutical industry, and partially people who were selling a product and made unsupported claims. There wasn't much research to be found at that point.