Hen panting heavily 24/7 - reproductive, gapeworm, or respiratory?

[Cinnaminute]

Hi, I'm looking to see if there's anything I'm missing that I could be doing for my hen, Cleo.

She has been showing reproductive issues this past month, but I don't know if her symptoms are related. Would it hurt to deworm her again? Get another antibiotic? Though I fear her time is limited. Here's what's been going on:

Stopped laying due to stress: she was laying eggs normally (5-6 a week) until April 20th. On April 19th, Cleo's flockmate & head hen Zelda (who she was raised with as a chick) passed away suddenly in the doorway of the coop, about 6 or so inches from the nest. Cleo as well as 2 other hens (Moose & Stitch) all stopped laying and even avoided the coop.

Laying resumed but only 3 per week. They resumed laying April 27th, a week later. But the three have only laid about 3 eggs each per week.

Just dewormed with Valbazen May 1st then again May 11th. Dewormed the whole flock and also treated them all with Corid.

May 4th-5th lethargy that she quickly recovered from. Cleo started laying around a lot. She would barely forage while free ranging. She stopped every few minutes to lay where she was standing or would find a bush to lay under.


Some TLC (electrolytes, resting indoors in the AC, calcium tablets) she perked back up. Figured it might've been the heat getting to her.

May 16th, passed lash material. I found her with her tail down. But she perked up quickly afterwards.



Still laying 3 eggs a week after passing lash material. I almost had my doubts it was her that passed the lash. So I waited.

May 23rd she passed what was essentially a soft shell egg, but basically just mucus coated in a thin eggshell membrane. No lash material.


I started her on amoxicillin morning of May 24th. 250mg twice daily. I also gave her a calcium tablet every day for 3 days in a row. I skipped a day and gave her another tablet today.

She is still laying eggs! Laid one yesterday and another the day before.

She's been heavily panting. She started to perk back up a bit, but after taking her off the calcium tablets, she seems to be getting worse. It's probably just a coincidence and just her health declining. She's less interested in food, but gets excited for oats and watermelon. Until this morning.

This morning, it's 68F in here. She's panting heavily. Comb is flopping. She's dehydrated. She emptied her crop overnight (she was eating yesterday). Ate a little oats and a few bits of cheese, but not interested in food or water. I'm getting water into her beak every 10 minutes to try to keep her hydrated but I'm afraid unless I tube feed/water her, there's little else I can do. Her abdomen is also larger, I noted. Seems the past week it's been getting bigger. It's not very soft and squishy though. She might be internally laying. But my hen Peaches, who is definitely internally laying for two months now, isn't like this. I'm afraid Cleo may pass away today or tomorrow and I'm heartbroken. She's so talkative to me and still lively, bright eyes. I want to help her and do what I can. I thought about trying to drain her abdomen but I don't think I can get any needles today. Might be able to tomorrow. But honestly, I'm not sure if it would help seeing as this likely isn't ascites due to all the other symptoms she's been having.


Any advice? It's probably just too late for her, I imagine. It hurts to think so and I don't want to give up on her. I'm probably going to put her back outside with everyone so she won't be alone.

Oh, before I forget, she's had an issue before. I think parasites might've been to blame. She immediately molted after being dewormed. https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...il-down-drinking-a-lot-refusing-food.1607565/ But to summarize, late December she got ill. Treating her with Corid and Safeguard seemed to be the fix but she was still off. Turns out, she was starting a molt.

 

[BuddingGardener]

Hi there, I'm really sorry to hear this. Something similar happened to my easter egger hen last year.

I don't think what I'm seeing in your photos is lash egg material. It looks like what my hen suffered with -- a possible internal layer. Have you noticed a lot of egg-like material and membranes where she sleeps at night? Signs are passing really malformed eggs, sometimes full eggs within membranes of other eggs, and just egg pieces throughout the day. Lots of soft shells/shelless. Sitting in the nest unproductively for hours is another sign, too, only to belaboredly push out an abnormal egg elsewhere.

If it is internal laying, at this point, there is almost nothing you can do. We euthanized our Junie when she was no longer standing up, panting, and clearly in pain. Confirming internal laying would find congealed egg material (like yolks) festering in the abdominal cavity.

I'm really sorry if this is the case. It's so heartbreaking to watch them suffer. Reproductive issues in laying hens is the worst.

 

[Cinnaminute]

@BuddingGardener Thank you. I haven't seen any material, but it's possible the others end up eating it. And she doesn't bother with the nest. However, I have a Polish hen who is definitely doing just that - sitting on the nest unproductively every day. But she's been holding on just fine for a couple months already, amazingly. I know all health issues aren't equal, though.

I'm just letting her walk around the yard and enjoy herself. She started drinking finally. Like, a lot. So that's good at least.

I'll just try to enjoy my time with her as long as I can. It's always the sweet ones, I swear. I lost two hens already since last May and have another internal layer. All 4 of these hens have all liked me a lot and are such sweethearts.

I'm sorry to hear about your Junie. Chickens are so delightful. It's so sad they have so many issues.

 

[Cinnaminute]

I edited my original post a bit. I was mistaken, thought she didn't lay the past few days but she did.

I also forgot to mention she acts like she's hot when she's panting like this. In 80 degrees (which is definitely hot) everyone is fine. But she starts to hold her wings from her body and keeps panting.

She is scratching around the yard and eating little bits of stuff. She did show a slight interest in eating some oats. But she's getting more and more worn out.

Could something other than reproduction issues cause this panting? I can't tell if she perhaps has two different things going on at once. Or is just having a hard time breathing due to something internal failing. I might never know unless I get a necropsy done. But I'm just trying to make sure I'm not overlooking some other possibility that could be treatable.

 

[Cinnaminute]

Sorry for a second post, I just wanted to share some videos of her behavior. She had a pretty good afternoon. Was more active and responsive. Drinking plenty and eating a little. Very interested in foraging and took a dust bath. There were a some times she didn't mouth breathe, but most of the time she did. And her breathing is heavy, even at rest. She seems more willing to drink than to eat, but she prefers to eat smaller bits rather than their full size pellets.

I'm going to see if I can get a look down her throat tonight, in case I can see anything.

Cleo this morning:

Cleo on the right:

 

[Cinnaminute]

Update: Tuesday and Wednesday she was seemingly doing a bit better. Less panting, more interest in food (only when heavily watered down) and some interest in treats.

However, yesterday and today she is worse again. Lethargic, dehydrated, barely eating (mostly dirt and some bugs I guess). She is somehow still laying 3 eggs per week. Fully formed eggs. So she must be taking the time to eat oyster shell. The shell does look like it has some kind of like "water damage" kind of look, if that makes sense. The coloration is splotchy.



I've been so worried about her eating enough that I've been trying whatever treats I can coax her with. I figure, as long as she's eating, it's a good thing for her. Yesterday the only thing she was interested in was tuna and ate a lot of it before bed. Today, she has no interest in it as well as the other treats I've tried successfully in past days. But she is still eating something. Her crop does have some stuff in it and empties by morning as usual. Her poops are very tiny since not much is moving through.

Also she is moody and clearly wants to be left alone. She does not like it when I bring her inside the house and will start trotting across the room heading for the back door to go back outside. So I'm leaving her with the flock since that's what seems to make her happiest. She's less talkative, sadly, and seems to hate me shoving amoxicillin down her. She finished her doses, though clearly it didn't seem to help. I suspected so since it didn't do anything the very first day, but wanted her to finish the course still.

Symptoms currently are:

• Lethargy (good posture, but stands around in seclusion - shows curiosity when others are but won't eat and returns to seclusion)
• Loss of appetite
• Floppy (still red) comb
• Swollen firm abdomen

I decided to attempt to drain her. Scared as heck to do it, felt like I was going to toss my cookies from the anxiety. But I did it. Wetted her feathers down so I could see her skin. Disinfected with isopropyl alcohol and then sprayed a couple times with Betadine. 18 gauge sterile needle and poked her. I was going to syringe it, but the needle fell back out of her. That didn't matter because she started pouring like a dripping faucet.



Kept her in a dog carrier. She dripped for about 20 or so minutes. When she finished, I wiped her feathers and backside off with paper towel soaked in isopropyl alcohol and then sprayed her again with Betadine. She stood around looking sleepy while she was draining, but her breathing was steady. She then drank a lot. Had some electrolytes in the water. After I cleaned her up, she stood around grooming herself! And started chatting again to me.

Been two hours since I drained her so I think she's safe to go back outside with everyone like she wants. She's still guzzling water. Holding tail high, too. Pooped better too.

I also bought some milk thistle in hopes of helping her liver, in case that's the cause. I'll be following the dosage I found here in the forums, 50-75 mg/kg PO q12h. I had to get 175mg capsules that say they have 80% silymarin (145mg). Cleo is 4.5lbs which is just a bit over 2kg so I think I can give her 1 capsule every 12 hours.

Here's hoping she can live the rest of her limited time more comfortably.

 

[Cinnaminute]

I figured it'd be good to keep this updated, just in case someone happens upon this post one day.

So next day (Saturday) after draining, she was lethargic. I probably only got about 1/4 to 1/3 of the fluid out last time.

Sunday, 48 hours after the first draining, I decided to drain her again. This time she dripped more slowly but it took nearly 2 hours for her to finish dripping. She flooded out a potty pad. It seems like nearly all of the rest of the fluid came out. I didn't intend on so much draining from her in one go.

First potty pad change:


Went to mow the lawn and found this one flooded. She still kept draining for nearly an hour after this, albeit less and more slowly.


She perked up again afterwards. I made sure to supply her with electrolytes in her water while she drained. When she finished, I put her back outside with everyone. It was getting dark by then so she went to bed for the night.

Next morning, Monday, she was seemingly quite ill. She's so light after losing all that fluid and she's really thin from not eating enough. She's so light to hold and was weak on her feet. I noticed her feet were really cold, even in 88 degree weather and her comb was turning purple. She also panted a lot.

All she did was lay around or stand around drinking water all day. I put Nutridrench in the water to boost her vitamins. I honestly thought I was going to lose her that night. She definitely seemed to be having some kind of circulation trouble.

I ended up cooking scrambled egg and added some tuna to it. I was surprised she was interested in it. So I pulled her aside for a breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It was the only thing she showed a remote interest in food-wise. I also gave her about 1/3 of an adult 81mg aspirin. I wanted to relieve any pain. Especially since I worried she wouldn't pull through.

It had started to rain at one point and she didn't feel well enough to run back to shelter so I found her huddled up by a pallet near the porch stairs, poor girl.


However, good news for today! She's not panting. Her comb is mostly back to a normal red. It's still floppy but her poop is no longer dehydrated looking. It's watery, but clear water, because of how much she drank. Plus she's FINALLY eating her feed. It's watered down, but she's eating it. She nibbled some egg and tuna, but not as much since she was full of foraging goodies and feed. I gave her another 1/3 of aspirin. Put Nutridrench in the water.

Cleo is the one middle, farthest out

She's still weak on her feet. She can't run very much but she tries. She seems to be enjoying herself and even got up on a roost in the run to bask in the fan's breeze late afternoon. I know I'm likely only prolonging the inevitable, since ascites is a sign of something gone wrong internally, but she's a fighter. Even at her worst, I can see she is determined to live so I plan on honoring that as much as I can. I'm thinking the draining might have put her into shock, but I don't know a lot about the signs of shock.

 

[Cinnaminute]

Update: Cleo has filled up again the past week. I check her every day and for the past month she's been very very slowly gaining weight. However, the past week her weight increased more rapidly and the past few days she's begun to pant heavily. It never felt like she was too swollen, but this morning she is definitely fluid filled.

I'm going to be draining her this afternoon. She is still eating normally, so I'm hoping that doing it early this time will prevent her from going into shock.

I'll be definitely starting her on whatever I can to support her liver. I was unsure the past month about the actual case of her ascites, but her swelling up again definitely clues me in to it being heart or liver related. So I plan on properly putting her on liver support stuff like milk thistle and adding things to her diet. I'll be looking further into it and keep this updated on her draining and diet changes.

 

[Cinnaminute]

So I messed up a bit yesterday. I was very tired and stressed.

My needles are 1" long 18 gauge. Because I'm scared of stabbing something important, I wrap the needles lower portion with tape to shorten the needle. I learned to do this because the first time I drained her, I was slow poking her with the needle (unsure, stressed, squeamish about stabbing my pet) and it hurt her, she jumped, and I didn't get the needle in. I figured quickly would be more painless, obviously. So I wrapped the needle.

This time, I couldn't remember how short I wrapped the needle so I wrapped it to 1/4" but when I jabbed her, she only bled. Seems it didn't go deep enough. I felt bad, let her rest about a half hour, then went for round two with a new needle, this time wrapped to 1/3". It worked, went in, and she started dripping from the needle. The fluid wasn't as yellow as last time, kind of more clear. I removed the needle expecting her to just keep dripping like last time but the dripping pretty much stopped.

I decided to leave her be. She perked up and has been mostly normal again, no excessive panting. However, this evening she seems a bit depressed. It's been a really hot day (100F with an index of 108) and with her being dehydrated, hot, and swelling up again, she obviously doesn't feel the best. I did put her in the A/C for a while but she's been mostly blah and standing by the water dish guzzling tons of fluid. She feels fuller today than yesterday.

Current Plan:
I'm giving her dandelion tea to see I can flush some excess fluids from her without doing so with a needle. I've also offered treats (cooked egg, oats, rice, tuna) but she's not very interested. Nibbles a little here and there. Her poop is mostly pure clear water with some bits of what she's nibbled on. I'm going to keep her inside with me tonight so she can drink her tea and have some peace from the girls in the flock who have been picking on her. Due to her starting to lose her appetite, if the dandelion tea doesn't start working the fluids out of her come Tuesday, I'll be attempting another drain and this time see if I can syringe the fluid or at least just leave the needle in.

I have some milk thistle too that I need to properly get her started on. I worry about it interacting with other things she's taken so I always hesitate to give it to her. I'm going to assume it's safe given simultaneously with dandelion tea, but I want to be careful.

 

[Cinnaminute]

Forgot to update! I ended up attempting a drain again the night of July 18th since she just started showing signs of losing her appetite during the day and overall seemed miserable. I think she was too far along for the tea to be of any help.

Anyway, draining worked first try and I left the needle in for a few minutes (she ended up pulling it out). Over the course of about an hour and a half she slow dripped everything out (or nearly everything, I felt no more swelling). She happily ate some scrambled egg, too.



It took a couple days but she ended up seemingly going into shock again? Comb drooped down over her face, turning purple on the edges... and she became lethargic, spending most of her time hiding at the back of the kennel away from everyone. I administered aspirin to her (1/3 of an 81mg tablet twice daily) and she bounced back within 48 hours. I decided not to give her anymore once she bounced back.

I wonder if I should put her on aspirin as soon as I drain her? When she fills up again (since I know it's all too likely to happen, but hopefully not too soon) I'll try to get her on aspirin right away.

A couple days ago I put her on milk thistle. She gets a capsule every morning but I might double it. And I plan on offering more dandelion tea soon to keep her from filling as quickly. She's still pretty lightweight and hasn't put back on the weight she lost. Though that's good in a sense, because that also means she isn't filling up with fluids, either. But she's been back to her old self again, running around foraging & dust bathing & sun bathing as she loves to do!

Only two extra things of note:
1. I think she mostly stopped laying? I got a couple eggs from her after I drained her but haven't seen any the past week.
2. My white Leghorn, Gretchen, has taken to bullying her (maybe because she's ill) so she has grown a tad skittish, unfortunately.

Cleo (middle, between the two Speckleds) enjoying a dust bath


Cleo (right) moping this morning because of all the rain from Tropical Storm Debby