High coop entrance that raccoons and rodents can't climb

[Lumenos]

Update: This is only an idea I had that gave many concerned people the impression I was going to try it without heeding their advice. I have the design for my coop and it doesn't implement any of these hypothetically experimental ideas. I'm still interested in this but I won't get around to it for a long time. If you are interested in this, note that I have changed the hypothetical "plan" many times, so you should read the thread backwards.

Update 2: I made another thread where I explain a coup design that I'm presently considering.

I'm designing a movable coop and run. I have some ideas for pest and predator control that I have not seen before. At the end I list some questions for anyone who knows about raccoons, muscovies, and brown leghorns. The main idea is to put the coop entrance high so that the birds can fly to it, but pests and predators can't get in, such as: raccoons, opossum, rats, maybe even mice and snakes. The coop entrance is only open to the run. The run is to be chickenwire to stop birds of prey and cats who could also jump/fly into the coop otherwise. Coyotes could go through or under the chickenwire but the coop entrance would be just large enough for a bird and once inside the birds squeeze through a tight, S-shaped corridor that a coyote shouldn't be able to get through.

This is the current plan based on the scrap materials I have: The entryway is a box attached to the coop. It is completely open on the bottom and raised (high) off the ground so the birds can go under it and fly up to the coop entrance. The sides are fairly thick sheet metal hanging from a narrow roof (the sheet metal also acts as a drip edge as you see on most roofs). The entryway extends about 40" out from the coop entrance and is 32" wide. I could adjust the height by raising or lowing the entire coop, like as I find more wood I build another four walls, put the coop on it and move the wire floor down.

I hope to be able to make it so that the only place inside, the raccoons would be able to grab, is the bottom of the coop entrance. The birds first jump up to a bar then make the big leap to the coop entrance. The distance between this bar and the bottom of the coop entrance is the critical factor. It must be further than a raccoon can reach/jump, but close enough that the birds can and will go into the coop at dusk. From what little I could find online it seems raccoons don't jump very well. Correct me if I am wrong there. If the bar was 35" out from the bottom of the entrance and 25" down, a raccoon would have to reach/jump diagonally 42". I'm not sure of the distances but it seems realistic some poultry could jump/fly a greater distance horizontally, because they can flap their wings a few times. It seems a raccoon could probably stretch a greater distance straight up from the ground, but when they have to go horizontal they wouldn't be able to jump/reach as far as some poultry.

Eventually I may have chicken's or muscovy ducks. I have a brown leghorn that I like because she is smart, calm, and a good flyer. I would probably get another of those if I will have chickens. (I have some chickens now that are about a month old. I keep them in connected cardboard boxes in the house at night, and a during the day I put them outside in a large pen made of scrap wood and chickenwire.)

If I get muscovy ducks, they would probably be for meat. To start I plan to use a broody chicken (probably a Brahma) to hatch muscovy eggs purchased from Ebay or maybe someone here. (If you are in Southern California and you breed muscovies, please contact me.)

I might put the breeder drake in another coop so he doesn't hurt the ducklings, as muscovies are known to do when confined. I'm considering only getting a large, fast growing variety, for the breeder drake such as these types: Hoffman Hatchery ($42 for six shipped here) J. M. Hatchery ($110 for 15 shipped here). I could afford to make just one large pen for him, with plywood and hardware cloth, if he cannot jump further than a raccoon.

Are these large/fast growing variety of muscovy able to leap further than a raccoon? At what age will they be able to do this? How about the smaller variety or a cross between these two?

Would raccoons be able to climb the plywood with many layers of paint and only a few rivet or screw heads to hold onto? Should I have sheet metal instead of plywood for under the entrance also?

If I train the birds to go into the coop at night, will a raccoon be able to entice them out like by putting their hand through the chicken wire?

Will the entryway have enough space for these birds to spread their wings and fly in?

I plan to make the size of the entrance and the S-shaped corridor adjustable, using movable posts. What would be the largest and smallest estimated width and height for a large muscovy drake? How about a large muscovy hen? A small muscovy drake and hen? A brown leghorn hen? How narrow or wide would the S-shaped corridor need to be to keep out coyotes or to allow these birds through? Which of these will be small enough to prevent a coyote from getting through?

Are there any other problems or modifications you would suggest?

 

[patandchickens]

This was discussed on another recent thread, I forget whether it was yours or not, the title was something like 'raccoons can't jump'. If you haven't seen that, you might want to take a look at it.

The fundamental problem with your plan is that hawks and owls fly. Anywhere a chicken or muscovy can get, so can a hawk or owl. People DO sometimes have owls go through open coop popdoors at night into the coop; your coop would be *inviting* it. Also a dog or fox or cat or weasel could easily get into that coop.

Honestly I would not touch it myself with a ten foot pole, it sounds like a lot of work to go to in order to end up feeding predators. You can certainly try it, but don't be surprised if you have to rebuild both coop and flock at some point. (Also, although I have not raised muscovies, from what I see/hear of them I would be rather surprised if you could train them to use that type of coop...)

JMHO, sorry,

Pat

 

[midget_farms]

Make no mistake - raccoons can climb. They are very intelligent and will get into anything that is not closed AND locked! If they had thumbs they could pick locks too.

 

[Bossroo]

Good luck with your designed restaurant for predators.

 

[Lumenos]

Quote:
My original post was quite long and maybe confusing. The coop entrance is only open to the run. Everywhere else the coop is completely enclosed by wood or 1/2" hardware cloth (even underneath). Birds of prey and cats should be stopped by the chicken wire of the run, unless a cat digs in. If a dog gets in during the day (which is possible, as a neighbor told me a coyote got on their wall and went into our yard) I would think the birds would have the sense to fly up into the coop while a dog or cat is busy digging or tearing open the chicken wire.

Come to think of it, the birds could get jammed in the corridor, in a panic. I think I will make two entrances and use staggered posts to prevent the large canines from entering the coop (as I explained above). A small canine who was a good jumper could be a problem. I guess I should be planning for this distance from the "chicken launchpad", as it may be further than a coon can hop/reach. It seems chickens must be able to out-jump a small dog or even a cat, from a round bar.

I suspect raccoons are what is digging holes all over, probably looking for the numerous, huge June bug larvae, which they can hear. There is a good chance raccoons will tear up the chickenwire but I think they would be far more likely to dig under it. If they do there is a possibility that an owl or cat could get in before I notice the hole. There are definitely owls here. I can hear owls sometimes quite early. One got a rabbit I had, but I heard it scream and got the carcass before the owl did any damage. Saved me the guilt of slaughtering it myself!

It seems less likely an owl would go under chickenwire and up into the coop, but a cat certainly might. Are cats the type to kill every bird they see or will they just get one and try to take it away?

If I am raising a full hatching of muscovies, loss of one duckling is not so bad. Most predators won't/can't take away more than one, I think. If I find a bunch of dead ones, I could just cook 'um like the rabbit. Edible pets have their advantages! If they get one of my breeders I will have to admit the naysayers were correct and change my design. I was thinking of putting muscovies on a climb-proof enclosure on the roof. Can't leghorns or muscovies fly higher than even a cat can jump?

People who day-range don't seem to worry about cats, but I guess that is not with young birds. Muscovies are supposed to be very protective of their young and they can be as large as geese. I'm not sure a cat would want to contend with a muscovy hen (in a confined space). I read muscovies have small feather-like needles on their wing "elbows" that they stab and punch with.

I've never seen a weasel around here although we are close to the wilderness. Are weasels better climbers or jumpers than raccoons?

Quote:
Here is that thread. I only saw the website they linked to and that is where I got the idea for the sheet metal. I forgot where the website was however, so double thanks!

I may have been underestimating raccoon's climbing abilities. I'm planing to countersink every screw and leave the screwdriver slot pointed down. Now I'm thinking maybe I should use sheet metal under the entryway also, but I doubt they can climb plywood when they are not outside a corner. I looked at all the video I could find of coons climbing. For example one was climbing a stucco wall but only on the corner where they could get a sideways grip on each side of the wall. I don't think even a cat can go straight up a hard wood face without using some momentum to hold them to the surface they are climbing. But coons may be able to put their claws into the painted wood and hold themselves against the sheet metal, so it is safer to do metal all the way around.

It would be a shame but the heavy sheet metal I have may not be suitable. It has a few screw holes I will have to plug. I'm trying to see if I can make it so that the animals could be prevented from even getting on the roof but this may be more effort than it is worth. It means I have to attach the chickenwire somewhere near the bottom of the sheet metal and I will probably have to use the taller pieces of sheet metal. It greatly limits where I can put the coop also (it is hopefully to be mobile one day but putting it on wheels is going to be difficult or expensive).

Quote:
So long as they are able to get into the coup before a predator gets though/under 1" chickenwire, it would serve its main purpose.

When they are brooding they won't be able to get *out* of the coop until they can hop up to the exit. I will probably lock them in at night until they can get to the coop entrance from the necessary launchpad distance.

If I put their feed in the coop, that should motivate them to go in sometimes. Also muscovies are supposed to be roosting ducks and the coop is the only place they will have roosts.

Thanks for your interest and advice!

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Oh, wait, so the chickenwire is meant as sort of a sacrificial barrier (and would cover the top of the run too?), you don't mind trolling predators to rip through it and have to replace it periodically? Hm. I had not considered that option, it is not the most intuitively obvious choice to me... you wouldn't have to replace sections of chickenwire very often before it'd start costing more than 2x4 welded wire...

I suspect raccoons are what is digging holes all over, probably looking for the numerous, huge June bug larvae, which they can hear.

Raccoons don't dig awfully much; if something is plowing up your lawn it is likelier skunks.

There is a good chance raccoons will tear up the chickenwire but I think they would be far more likely to dig under it. If they do there is a possibility that an owl or cat could get in before I notice the hole. There are definitely owls here. I can hear owls sometimes quite early. One got a rabbit I had, but I heard it scream and got the carcass before the owl did any damage. Saved me the guilt of slaughtering it myself!

It seems less likely an owl would go under chickenwire and up into the coop, but a cat certainly might. Are cats the type to kill every bird they see or will they just get one and try to take it away?

Cats don't really attack grown chickens very much, unless you have a turrible bad feral cat problem in your area.

I may have been underestimating raccoon's climbing abilities. I'm planing to countersink every screw

No, that won't help you. ANY irregularity, they can get their claws into. If you were going to do this plan of yours (but see below), the only way to make it work is to do what zoos do (take lessons from zoos -- they KNOW about keeping animals confined!!). You use fasteners ONLY along the upper and lower edges of the smooth barrier material, having it be one long piece wrapped around your structure. Since you will be working with a material (sheet metal) that needs its seam screwed down, where the two ends meet, that will have to be in an area where there isn't anything ABOVE it that a raccoon could get a toehold on, and with some arrangement to keep a raccoon from going up there and 'circumnavigating' around to the enterable part of the coop.

But, here is the thing.

How much is that sheet metal plus chickenwire gonna cost. (Even if you have it already, it is not "free", as you could sell it and apply that money towards buying fencing).

Versus, how much would 2x2 or 2x4 wire cost you. (Since you seem ok with the possibility of losing a couple birds here and there, you might even skip the usual 'something smaller-mesh along the bottom 2-3').

You might want to add it up. I think you may be surprised how relatively NON expensive it is, to use 2x4 wire and build a normal coop and be done with it, with a good likelihood of not losing many if any birds.

Quote:
So long as they are able to get into the coup before a predator gets though/under 1" chickenwire, it would serve its main purpose.

"Be able to" is different than "would actually do so"...

Just sayin',

Pat​

 

[Bossroo]

You assume that chickens and ducks will reason an escape route when there is an immediate danger of death. They definately do NOT have the brain capacity for this. Instinct tells them to flee NOW. All prey animals will make an immediate beeline to any persieved open space to escape. The first one is the fence, and stick their head through any opening in it in an effort to escape, become entangled and become an easy kill. Next you assume that they will enter the coop and escape the predator. They are actually entering a death trap as there will be panic with no escape once inside the coop for them . Please do a plan "B".

 

[patandchickens]

General comment:

Aside from things that are dependant on newly-developed technologies, there are really not many new ideas under the sun. Most of it has been thunk up before, many many times. And although there are (very rare!) exceptions, in general if something is not customarily done (e.g. in livestock housing) there is a REASON.

Now, there *is* the occasional genuinely-new or genuinely-underutilized idea floating around out there. And it is certainly good to look for 'em.

HOWEVER in order to have any real hope of sorting out the rare diamond from the beachful of useless sand, you really have to have EXPERIENCE WITH THE LIVESTOCK.

May I gently suggest, to the o.p. and to the others we occasionally get who are new to poultry but have Radical New Brilliant Ideas, that it is highly worthwhile building a conventional design with a known track record, and getting to know how the animals actually behave for a few years, before leaping off into uncharted territory with them

Just a thought, from someone who hates reading 'something et all my chickens, how could I have been so stupid' posts,

Pat

 

[Lumenos]

Quote:
Okay fine. I suppose a coop door is a good idea to build now rather than after I have adult chickens or muscovies.

I could always make a ramp up to the door and drop it after they are tucked in at night.

Why do they always have these ramps? I don't get it. These are birds, but we aren't able to utilize their best survival skill? Are ramps really necessary once they are trained to go in, in the evening? Aren't there (brown) leghorns that can be trained to fly up to a perch at night? I have read of free range turkeys that simply sleep in trees. I think I've read the same of muscovies.

How about my basic design but with a door on the entrance that I use religiously for a few months, and most of the time for a year or so, to see what happens that way? It would open by sliding down inside the wall and have a latch lock to hold it.

 

[Lumenos]

Quote:
Is it possible that they would want to fly up instead of out into the open? What if the top of the run is lower than the the entryway and the entryway is completely extended with wood down to the ground and out on the sides a little ways so that the poultry will see wire mesh and predators above and on three sides? Isn't there a good chance most would run away from that and go up into the entryway where they can see no predators and they are high off the ground? If some would have the sense to do this and others would not, I'd want to breed the smart ones.

But if you are correct that "all prey animals will make an immediate beeline to any perceived open space to escape", perhaps what would work is something more like Mark's second diagram, but instead of a roof it is covered with wire. Again working on the principle that their instinct is to fly up when predators are near the ground. So long as it isn't under trees or anything, coons can't get on top of it to scare the birds down to be caught by the other coons.

I was more concerned that the birds wouldn't be frightened of less aggressive acting predators, after hearing how raccoons will hold their hand in a cage until a chicken gets curious and comes up to them. Are muscovies also this friendly to their enemies?

I don't see how anyone could know that birds wouldn't go into some type of high enclosure, unless they know of someone who has tried this before.

Quote:
You mean they are likely to pile up and smoother each other? This can't kill them all.

Are they less likely to panic if they are locked in a coop and they see a coon clawing at a wire window?

Thanks for the advice. If there is even a small chance some birds would (learn to) go into the coop, then I think it would be worth the experiment. Birds are not expensive. If I don't loose all the broody birds, fertile muscovy or chicken eggs, are even cheaper and I'd be back in business in no time. I'm a fregan but if there is a chance of developing a smarter breed or a new innovation I think it's worth some animal casualties. Of course, if I can learn from others, that is the best way.