INBREEDING - LINE BREEDING

[Miami Leghorn]

Hello,
I have a question that I think I know the answer to but I need to ask the "OG's" here in this forum...
I plan to order some chicks this spring,I'm going to order a couple of roosters and about a couple dozen hens.(2 roosters per 12 hens ratio)
I spoke to the breeder and they cannot guarantee that the roosters That I order will or will not be related to the hens.
So this concerns me.
I may have to order stock from two different breeders to avoid an in-breeding situation and all the possible negative issues that go with it,,which is not a problem but I would like to save some money if I could.
Any one here have any experience with brother-sister ;father- daughter;mother-son breedings?
Positive or negative?
Can I get away with a few in-breedings then out-cross with a known unrelated (same variety) bird?
Any help would be appreciated

 

[Cyprus]

You'll be fine.
Chickens are very versatile. You can even breed full blood siblings together for one generation and you should be okay. But I wouldn't breed the resulting offspring together.
I think that, given you'll have so many hens, there isn't much to worry about.

 

[Miami Leghorn]

Thank you!!

 

[ButtonquailGirl14]

 

[MissChick@dee]

That just sounds...wrong

 

[Egghead_Jr]

When obtaining stock from a breeder they all will be related to some extent. You don't want to outcross anytime soon. Keep with that one line of breed. It will be easier to maintain if you do so. Outcrosses are not to be taken lightly. It will wreak havoc on the established attributes of the line. They are done only when a line needs an attribute it's lacking or if for some reason the line breeding turned into inbreeding and there is need to invigorate vitality and egg hatchability. In the later scenario it is better to obtain a cockerel or pullet from the original breeder or another breeder of that line. Again, outcrossing is not for the faint of heart. It will take what took decades to achieve in regards to body type and so on and toss it out the window in one breeding. You will be working hard to regain "type" in the flock.

OUtcrosses must be made when an attribute is so long bred out of a line or your own flock you can not regain it without an outcross. I don't know, lets say a variety does best with double mating and you've bred, or breeder you obtain stock from bred for pullets to standard. This means the cockerels produced will not be to standard of perfection. It's a pullet line. You decide you want cocks to be to standard too so get a pullet or cockerel from a cockerel line and breed it to bring in those attributes the pullet line has lost. For an example let's say it's a laced variety and lacing is complete if cock birds with leakage on chest are used but the standard calls for all black chest. So this outcross would be the start of a cockerel line. You will have to cull offspring hard for three generations minimum before the body type begins to set into your line. The first outcross is going to have everything showing up and look a mess. But you now have the start of a cockerel line and still have your pullet line. This is double mating. You carry two lines of birds and don't interbreed those lines. They stay separate, one line producing standard cockerels and other line producing standard pullets.

If you've been reading this then you are getting the idea that what we consider inbreeding is not a bad thing in livestock. Line breeding, spiral breeding are ways to keep good attributes from a line of breed without breeding so close so often that fertility and vitality are effected. Their are closed flocks that have been line bred for decades, yes 30 and 50 years without outcrossing. The half century flock I have in mind does have some hatchability issue. But you get the idea, you won't have to worry about "inbreeding" for quite some time if you line breed correctly.

As for daughters to fathers and so on. Yes, please! It's going to maintain those excellent attributes you liked about the line of birds in the first place. You can breed down the direct family tree for three or four generations, this means pullet or cockerel back crossed to grand father or grand mother. Even great grand father and mother. Below is a good illustration that will show what you're trying to achieve. Note the shading of blocks, it's showing how you're not keeping 90% blood of original dam for entire flock or breeding that 90% blood together and so on. The "outcross" breeding is as example and not implying you need to do it in 6th generation. And again, if outcrossing try to get stock from original source or from same line and different breeder.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

I've bath water running so have time to beat on this horse some more...

Let's say you do outcross. Your line, even from breeder, has pale legs. A yellow that fades by six months looking white washed. There is a need to bring in a bird with bright, hint of orange vibrant yellow legs. You make the outcross and the resulting offspring are everywhere in regards to every attribute including size. Welcome to the hot mess world of F1 birds.

Here is where breeding siblings is common. F1 bred together begets F2 generation. The fastest way to pull back on all the new genetic threads you put into the birds is to narrow down those threads by very close mating. Take the best F1 and mate back to Dam or Sire for F1BC (backcross) and mate best F1 together for F2. Then next year do it again. F2 together for F3 and if still needing those yellow legs do another backcross of F2 to original dam or sire or backcross to F1 sire or dam.

You can go up to F5 generation without worry. Those backcrosses are the start of a "line" of birds that are not all sibling matings. YOu now have a very close tree of birds that are keeping the attributes you quickly selected for to clean up the mess of outcross. These birds are the foundation of a line that if line bred or spiral bred well will not need a new outcross for half a century.

 

[Miami Leghorn]

When obtaining stock from a breeder they all will be related to some extent. You don't want to outcross anytime soon. Keep with that one line of breed. It will be easier to maintain if you do so. Outcrosses are not to be taken lightly. It will wreak havoc on the established attributes of the line. They are done only when a line needs an attribute it's lacking or if for some reason the line breeding turned into inbreeding and there is need to invigorate vitality and egg hatchability. In the later scenario it is better to obtain a cockerel or pullet from the original breeder or another breeder of that line. Again, outcrossing is not for the faint of heart. It will take what took decades to achieve in regards to body type and so on and toss it out the window in one breeding. You will be working hard to regain "type" in the flock.

OUtcrosses must be made when an attribute is so long bred out of a line or your own flock you can not regain it without an outcross. I don't know, lets say a variety does best with double mating and you've bred, or breeder you obtain stock from bred for pullets to standard. This means the cockerels produced will not be to standard of perfection. It's a pullet line. You decide you want cocks to be to standard too so get a pullet or cockerel from a cockerel line and breed it to bring in those attributes the pullet line has lost. For an example let's say it's a laced variety and lacing is complete if cock birds with leakage on chest are used but the standard calls for all black chest. So this outcross would be the start of a cockerel line. You will have to cull offspring hard for three generations minimum before the body type begins to set into your line. The first outcross is going to have everything showing up and look a mess.

If you've been reading this then you are getting the idea that what we consider inbreeding is not a bad thing in livestock. Line breeding, spiral breeding are ways to keep good attributes from a line of breed without breeding so close so often that fertility and vitality are effected. Their are closed flocks that have been line bred for decades, yes 30 and 50 years without outcrossing. The half century flock I have in mind does have some hatchability issue. But you get the idea, you won't have to worry about "inbreeding" for quite some time if you line breed correctly.

As for daughters to fathers and so on. Yes, please! It's going to maintain those excellent attributes you liked about the line of birds in the first place. You can breed down the direct family tree for three or four generations, this means pullet or cockerel back crossed to grand father or grand mother. Even great grand father and mother. Below is a good illustration that will show what you're trying to achieve. Note the shading of blocks, it's showing how you're not keeping 90% blood of original dam for entire flock or breeding that 90% blood together and so on. The "outcross" breeding is as example and not implying you need to do it in 6th generation. And again, if outcrossing try to get stock from original source or from same line and different breeder.

This is extremely helpful.
I have tons of questions..but just one for now and I REALLY APPRECIATE the info.So, outcross would be logical if say it would be to partially related individual to maintain hybrid vigor(same variety bird here we're talking,not other variety-leghorns to be exact),something from the original breeder if possible?I've bred dogs before and some of the best results were daughter to father matings 1,2,3 times the female from the 3rd father to daughter mating would be tight,very tight; then "outcross" the resulting female to a related "original genetics related"male. So that would work with chickens?I will be working with Leghorns.And to risk sounding a bit redundant,but I'm breeding for type and fertility.So this type of breeding will not affect hatchability and egg production (They're Leghorns for God's sake)for quite a long time ,huh?

 

[Egghead_Jr]

It's not what is termed hybrid vigor. That in itself actually will produce larger birds than either parent stock; in first generation only. OUtcrossing does invigorate, improve vitality, fertility and hatchability just like hybrid vigor though. So you see it's not needed until it's really needed. Birds arn't active foragers, active mating, hatch rate is way down. You won't see that unless you've actually inbred for a full decade.

Yes, when saying outcross we are talking same variety and breed. It's outcrossed from your line or (hopfully) outcrossed from your flock to same line. I'm not talking crossing varieties of same breed. That will do the same though, produce the F1 mess that you have to clean up and in the case of different variety it's even harder as you're needing to select for plumage correction too. Think how long it would be to correct pencilled to colombian. Well, we could ask @Wynette how her birds are doing two generations after that exact cross. Tough to weed through I bet but I know she can. Actually curious to see photos....

 

[Miami Leghorn]

It's not what is termed hybrid vigor. That in itself actually will produce larger birds than either parent stock; in first generation only. OUtcrossing does invigorate, improve vitality, fertility and hatchability just like hybrid vigor though. So you see it's not needed until it's really needed. Birds arn't active foragers, active mating, hatch rate is way down. You won't see that unless you've actually inbred for a full decade.

Yes, when saying outcross we are talking same variety and breed. It's outcrossed from your line or (hopfully) outcrossed from your flock to same line. I'm not talking crossing varieties of same breed. That will do the same though, produce the F1 mess that you have to clean up and in the case of different variety it's even harder as you're needing to select for plumage correction too. Think how long it would be to correct pencilled to colombian. Well, we could ask @Wynette how her birds are doing two generations after that exact cross. Tough to weed through I bet but I know she can. Actually curious to see photos....

Pencilled to Colombian ...wow...