Is this a blue copper maran?

[Azaia]

I recently purchased this little girl hatched July 2021, she seems small for her age. I wanted a blue copper maran for a black copper I was also picking up from the same breeder two days ago. The breeder said she was the only one (meaning, blue copper) left. Does she look like a blue copper to you? her copper tones seem faint if at all present. We are in the UK if that helps with slight variations in the genetics of the type.

The other question I have, which Im not sure if I should post separately is this:
We noticed she has a raw bottom when I got her home, possibly hen pecked and is very skittish as a result, we've got some violet spray o her now. he said if we're not happy he can swap her for another type such as a Marans, Araucana and "copper black hybrid" (not sure about what that one is). What would the black copper boy that we picked up (in the pic) be best paired with, if not the blue girl in the pic? I have seen splash and cuckoo Marans there too.

Would really love some help as he's awaiting my response!

Oh! and how do you feel about the black copper boy we've got from him?? Is he a good type? We're hoping of raising pullets to sell.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

She is not a good Blue Copper Marans type. I too can barely see any copper at all in her hackle.

BUT...what color are her eggs? Are you showing? If not, then you can work with substandard IF the health is excellent and the egg color is excellent and your goals are for backyard enjoyment and egg color. Breeders consistently work around flaws by combining parents for certain desired results. Her small size would be a concern though as my experience is that bantams consistently downsize the offspring for a number of generations.

Your BCM rooster looks a bit brassy to me. I'd need a side profile to see if he has a good body conformation, imho (and I'm not a BCM show expert).

I'm assuming you are doing a British standard (not French) as I don't see leg feathering.

LofMc

 

[Azaia]

No these are indeed French Copper Marans. I am quite miffed as I trusted the opinion of this breeder who also happens to have a very good standing in the Maran Club UK. I chose to buy from him, finding his details on the official site; over someone selling on a standard website specialising in rehoming generic pets.

The girl doesn't have feathers on her feet, you're right and copper is quite non-existent in her. Is this something she will still develop considering she was born last July?
Im new to Marans. She haas produced a very large chocolate egg despite her slender size. But if I plan to continue her lines for sale, then would I be compromising her physical type into her F1?

When I called this guy before I went to get these birds, he told me his copper boy is "really good" he has him with his girls and it's the "only one he has". However when I got there (2 hours drive away), this gentleman had this boy confined in a plastic chick sized very low cage so I couldnt see him, he then told me how he has no tail feathers as "he was pecked by the girls".
im hoping the tail will grow back?
But then for some reason he shows me the boy's brother - who, also happens to be a BCM in full form and in with some girls! He said 'ive given you the other one because he's bigger'. Now im thinking he's given me the other boy to see if he could get away with it, over what he actually told me about before I drove down.

I would really love some help from the BYC community.

She is not a good Blue Copper Marans type. I too can barely see any copper at all in her hackle.

BUT...what color are her eggs? Are you showing? If not, then you can work with substandard IF the health is excellent and the egg color is excellent and your goals are for backyard enjoyment and egg color. Breeders consistently work around flaws by combining parents for certain desired results. Her small size would be a concern though as my experience is that bantams consistently downsize the offspring for a number of generations.

Your BCM rooster looks a bit brassy to me. I'd need a side profile to see if he has a good body conformation, imho (and I'm not a BCM show expert).

I'm assuming you are doing a British standard (not French) as I don't see leg feathering.

LofMc

 

[GravityWaves]

In the first and second pictures, it looks like at least the right leg has some light feathering. Maybe the leg feathers were plucked along with her bottom?

"Copper Black Hybrids" are Marans-based hybrids that are bred to lay a lot more of the dark eggs than a pure Marans would normally lay.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

If leg feathers or copper isn't present at a year, they aren't there. First molt can bring roosters into all their glory, but colors and leg feathers should be present. Your guy is too brassy. That might not be bad for eggs as the brassy types tend to lay darker eggs. He may carry those genetics.

My experience when breeding bantam to full size is I get 3/4 size which seems to hang at least 2 generations.

She isn't a bantam, but she is small. Her body type will influence her offspring, but a hefty rooster might offset that.

I wouldn't buy from that guy again. He definitely sounds sketchy.

You can chose to complain, which probably won't go far, but you can try.

Or, if they are healthy, take what you've got and see what you get. But starting with flaws makes your journey much harder.

Decide if you are selling healthy types for egg color, calling them utility Marans, or breed to standard with a longer road.

Sorry for your disappointment.

LofMc

 

[Azaia]

Thank you really appreciate the support by this forum, the advise so far has been invaluable. I really didn't expect someone of great standing and a high position in the British Marans club to sell me anything but good stock, especially when my intention for the birds were communicated.

The girl produced her first egg yesterday, very large considering her size and chocolate coloured but with calcification. Her second egg today was lighter, more of a mid to dark brown. Im told she's been laying since March. Not sure how this colour would prevail...

I heard back from the breeder today after finding your concerns mirrored my uneasiness.
He has agreed to swap her out for a larger pullet which has been laying since Feb.

Also...he has suggested he can swap the BCM with a BLUE cockerel. He said I would get blue, black and splash F1 with him and the newly swapped pullet. is this correct?

 

[Azaia]

Your guy is too brassy. That might not be bad for eggs as the brassy types tend to lay darker eggs. He may carry those genetics.

For reference, do you have a picture showing ideal copper colour compared to the one I have?

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I don't have any of my BCM anymore (I went Barnevelder instead...found I liked their temperaments better)....but I can clip a nice photo of the breeder's birds I used. These are nice birds (sorry I don't have any photos of her blue copper).

You can see the nice upright stance and "u-shaped" back (hold overs from Langshan used to develop the breed). They are meant to be heavier birds as well. You can't see it in the photo, but all have the proper feather down leg, outside of foot, down outside of toe.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Thank you really appreciate the support by this forum, the advise so far has been invaluable. I really didn't expect someone of great standing and a high position in the British Marans club to sell me anything but good stock, especially when my intention for the birds were communicated.

The girl produced her first egg yesterday, very large considering her size and chocolate coloured but with calcification. Her second egg today was lighter, more of a mid to dark brown. Im told she's been laying since March. Not sure how this colour would prevail...

I heard back from the breeder today after finding your concerns mirrored my uneasiness.
He has agreed to swap her out for a larger pullet which has been laying since Feb.

Also...he has suggested he can swap the BCM with a BLUE cockerel. He said I would get blue, black and splash F1 with him and the newly swapped pullet. is this correct?

If he will trade for better birds, I'd do it. If you want blue, start with blue. You can't get to blue from black (see below).

Blue bred to blue produces blue, black and splash if the genetics are correct.

Blue is Black (B) and recessive splash (b). So Bb (blue) bred to Bb (blue) gives you:
Edited to Correct
25% black BB
50% blue Bb
25% splash bb

Nice thing about splash is bred to almost anything gives blue.

So Yes. I'd go for it. See that you get better conformation in the birds (see the photo I supplied from the renowned breeder in my area...which is in America.)

LofMc

 

[EmmaRainboe]

So Bb (blue) bred to Bb (blue) gives you:
50% black BB
25% blue Bb
25% splash bb

Blue (Bl/bl+) x Blue (Bl/bl+) will actually give you 25% black (bl+/bl+) 50% blue (Bl/bl+) and 25% splash (Bl/Bl)