Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[LaurenRitz]

@EddieSalita
@Perris
@U_Stormcrow

I'd like to start a discussion about adaptive breeding for chickens.

Basically, a landrace is a locally adapted variety which has enough genetic diversity to adapt to changing conditions. Landraces are often different even just a few miles apart, and the inbred "varieties" that we have become used to were once landraces.

My goal is to create a dual purpose landrace bird that thrives on forage, can out-compete predator pressure, makes excellent parents and is non-aggressive to humans and flock mates. I eventually want a bird that can thrive without human help if necessary.

Color and pattern doesn't matter to me, but since white seems to be a predator magnet I made the decision not to include white birds. All my birds are mottled or dark.

Please add people who might be interested in the discussion.

This is what chick camoflage should be!

 

[EddieSalita]

Unfortunately I'm in a different country, and bit of a chic,en breeding noob. But id love to have a go now im able there is a hatchery here that has several sex link hybrids developed for the hobby farm/free range egg laying industry.

the 3 are:



-red layer heritage: Rhode Island Red Cockerel over Rhode Island White Hen

-black layer heritage: Rhode Island Red Cockerel over Australorp Hen

-white layer heritage: White Leghorn Cockerel over Rhode Island White Hen



I have a few of each. The first two, but especially the black are very highly predatory. No small animal is safe in there. Mice, small rats, small snakes, frogs, toads.....They will even hunt small birds.

The aren't the friendliest. But not aggressive. The other two are much more affectionate. The whites are outstanding foragers, and one goes broody.

All very heat tolerant.

Unfortunately they are bred to lay 300 eggs per year for about 2 years. They live healthily for about 4 years then drop off the perch.

From all accounts these breed true. Getting a rooster is another matter. These have been developed over time with geneticists. Lots of money in keeping the secrets I imagine.

Some may have missed the thread. But I have a Rhode Island white over indian/cornish game hen (not cornish x) rooster @ 6 months old. Pics attached. A lady near me breeds these as F1 hybrids for meat. Not sure what to do with him. If it's worth raising some of eggs from the mentioned hens. Any thoughts on that?
I should weigh him. He is a tank. Not sure if he is too heavy for the little white layers.
We don't have anything like the predator pressure here that usa does. Only pythons, monitor lizards, foxes, dogs and the very rare Eagle. All readily evaded with electric netting and a good coop. They seem very wary of airborne threats.

 

[tinychicky]

Hi there,
This is a topic I have a lot of interest in, so I'll share my experience. In 2013, I started a free range flock that involved a thai aseel rooster, and hens of these breeds: Thai Aseel, Old English Game Bantam, Egyptian Fayoumi, Silver Phoenix, and an assortment of laying breeds whose genetics do not seems to have made the cut. Most birds were from breeders, except the Fayoumi and layers, which came from a hatchery.
Since then I have added very little new blood, relying on natural selection to play a large part in the success of the flock. Multiple broods were hatched by the hens each year. The traits that have persisted most are those of Phoenix (good mothering, predator- resistant coloring), Thai Aseel (upright posture, excellent predator awareness), and Egyptian Fayoumi (general wariness and wiliness). The Old English Game Bantam DNA has also contributed to overall appearance.
The birds are mid-sized with pea combs or small single combs and athletic builds. They are variably silver partridge, lemon partridge and wheaten. The roosters are gentle, good flock protectors, and tend toward the upright aseel build. The hens are broody, flighty, and quick, and tend toward a build more similar to an Old English Game. They lay a reasonable number of eggs in season, but once everyone goes broody, laying drops off.
The birds are also remarkably healthy. Since starting this breeding program I have had few/no issues with disease or internal parasites (I did spray Elector PSP for lice this year, but my two hatchery orpingtons were affected much more than the mixed breed chickens). I have not needed to worm in years- I suspect the birds are eating something that is a natural wormer when they forage. The birds that are taken by predators tend to be very old, very young, or low ranking cockerels. Healthy adults tend to be too fast for most predators and have a good flight ability. Those that survive to adulthood are long lived. My oldest bird of this lineage has survived near 10 years on free range (phoenix, old english, and, surprise! Antwerp bearded belgian! She's in the last photo).

My free range system involves letting the birds out of secure coops in the morning, and locking them up at night. During the hours of daylight they are free to do as they wish. If there is a predator around and I see it, I of course do go out to help drive it away. If the birds decide it's not safe and go into the pen, I will help by latching the door. Some days they are confined to the pen, such as when there is a storm or if I have company who does not prefer chickens sharing their space. So they're not fully on their own, but the chicks are hatched and raised with the flock and free range as soon as their mother decides it's time to leave the nest.

This year I'm changing it up by adding liege fighters. So far, I'm in love with their gentle, confident personalities, but other than large size, I'm not sure what they'll contribute that the flock doesn't already have.

Check out FloridaBullforg's thread if you haven't already, lots of incredible information here: https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-survival-junglefowl-x-liege.1424023/page-121


Sorry for the novel, here are some pictures:

 

[tinychicky]

TLDR: My birds are derived from several breeds known for free range ability and have always done well in my particular area.

I think there are probably many ways to approach the goal of creating an ideal chicken for your area. Just go with traits you like and be willing to cull traits you don't (or let natural selection do it for you). Also, I believe true landraces require a degree of uniformity and many, many generations to breed true. What I have is a group of mutts whose traits I like and are similar to each other.

 

[Ridgerunner]

My goal is to create a dual purpose landrace bird that thrives on forage, can out-compete predator pressure, makes excellent parents and is non-aggressive to humans and flock mates. I eventually want a bird that can thrive without human help if necessary.

To me you've done the most important part of this, decide what you want. Some of this will change, I consider this adventure a learning process. You are more likely to be successful if you are flexible enough to adjust as needed.

What do you expect from "thrive". To some people on here that means they lay a large egg and a lot of them. Or they get large enough to provide a lot of meat. You can eat any sized egg or any sized chicken. I'm not sure you really need what many think of dual purpose, which to me means they don't do as well with either meat or eggs as the specialized breeds but they do decent. But I'm probably getting my personal preferences into this too much. It is your goals that count.

To me, thrive means they lay enough eggs to hatch replacements, often go broody and raise the chicks themselves, feed themselves in the good weather months and don't need a lot of help with food in the winter, and are small enough and mobile enough to have a chance to evade predators. Several daytime predators are ambush types and get the chicken before they have a chance to escape but being mobile works in a lot of cases, especially having places they can fly up to.

You are going to need a lot of land. It sounds like you want them to sleep in trees and feed themselves. That means they will divide into several different flocks, each with its own territory. From @Shadrach experience in Spain that may mean much smaller flocks than many people on here consider acceptable. With different flocks they should manage genetic diversity OK.

To a large extent, select your breeding stock and expose them to the environment you want them to see. Natural selection will do your sorting for you. One hard thing for a lot of people is that you have to let natural selection happen. How much you want to manage predators is up to you. Some of the landrace chickens you are talking about are in predator-controlled environments, at least some predators.

I suggest you look at the "game" birds. Don't get all the same breed of game, you want different traits for natural selection to work. Several "breeds" have been mentioned above. I believe the Americal pioneers mainly brought game birds with them when they settled the frontier.

Good luck! An interesting discussion.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Following!

My own (rambling) thread here.

And like my Sig says, I'm learning from failure.

 

[Penpal]

Rhode Island Reds do not go broody, which seems like something you would want.

You might want to look into Icelandic chickens. My neighbor has them and loves them. They don't lay as many eggs as RIR or leghorns, but they do lay in winter. Extremely winter hardy, great foragers. I don't know if they typically kill mice, but my neighbor's chickens do.

 

[LaurenRitz]

To me you've done the most important part of this, decide what you want. Some of this will change, I consider this adventure a learning process. You are more likely to be successful if you are flexible enough to adjust as needed.

What do you expect from "thrive". To some people on here that means they lay a large egg and a lot of them. Or they get large enough to provide a lot of meat. You can eat any sized egg or any sized chicken. I'm not sure you really need what many think of dual purpose, which to me means they don't do as well with either meat or eggs as the specialized breeds but they do decent. But I'm probably getting my personal preferences into this too much. It is your goals that count.

To me, thrive means they lay enough eggs to hatch replacements, often go broody and raise the chicks themselves, feed themselves in the good weather months and don't need a lot of help with food in the winter, and are small enough and mobile enough to have a chance to evade predators. Several daytime predators are ambush types and get the chicken before they have a chance to escape but being mobile works in a lot of cases, especially having places they can fly up to.

You are going to need a lot of land. It sounds like you want them to sleep in trees and feed themselves. That means they will divide into several different flocks, each with its own territory. From @Shadrach experience in Spain that may mean much smaller flocks than many people on here consider acceptable. With different flocks they should manage genetic diversity OK.

To a large extent, select your breeding stock and expose them to the environment you want them to see. Natural selection will do your sorting for you. One hard thing for a lot of people is that you have to let natural selection happen. How much you want to manage predators is up to you. Some of the landrace chickens you are talking about are in predator-controlled environments, at least some predators.

I suggest you look at the "game" birds. Don't get all the same breed of game, you want different traits for natural selection to work. Several "breeds" have been mentioned above. I believe the Americal pioneers mainly brought game birds with them when they settled the frontier.

Good luck! An interesting discussion.

My birds free range from dawn to dusk on 3 acres of grass. The grass will eventually change, but for right now that's what I have.

I am only two years into the project. I do want them to be self sufficient and out-breed the predators.

My definition of "thrive" is very similar to yours. The one concession I have made is to put the broodys in a broody box while they sit. The majority of the eggs/chicks so far have been taken by snakes, and until I have a steady population I'll do what I can to make sure the chicks survive to adulthood.

If they want to separate into tribes and sleep in trees, so be it. Not necessarily part of the plan, but if it happens I'm good with it.

 

[LaurenRitz]

TLDR: My birds are derived from several breeds known for free range ability and have always done well in my particular area.

I think there are probably many ways to approach the goal of creating an ideal chicken for your area. Just go with traits you like and be willing to cull traits you don't (or let natural selection do it for you). Also, I believe true landraces require a degree of uniformity and many, many generations to breed true. What I have is a group of mutts whose traits I like and are similar to each other.

Right now I'm culling or rehoming any chicken that shows early susceptibility to disease. If a hen shows a propensity for reproductive issues I'll either rehome or cull her progeny.

That will be later, of course, but before I let the chickens take over the project.

 

[LaurenRitz]

Unfortunately I'm in a different country, and bit of a chic,en breeding noob. But id love to have a go now im able there is a hatchery here that has several sex link hybrids developed for the hobby farm/free range egg laying industry.

the 3 are:



-red layer heritage: Rhode Island Red Cockerel over Rhode Island White Hen

-black layer heritage: Rhode Island Red Cockerel over Australorp Hen

-white layer heritage: White Leghorn Cockerel over Rhode Island White Hen



I have a few of each. The first two, but especially the black are very highly predatory. No small animal is safe in there. Mice, small rats, small snakes, frogs, toads.....They will even hunt small birds.

The aren't the friendliest. But not aggressive. The other two are much more affectionate. The whites are outstanding foragers, and one goes broody.

All very heat tolerant.

Unfortunately they are bred to lay 300 eggs per year for about 2 years. They live healthily for about 4 years then drop off the perch.

From all accounts these breed true. Getting a rooster is another matter. These have been developed over time with geneticists. Lots of money in keeping the secrets I imagine.

Some may have missed the thread. But I have a Rhode Island white over indian/cornish game hen (not cornish x) rooster @ 6 months old. Pics attached. A lady near me breeds these as F1 hybrids for meat. Not sure what to do with him. If it's worth raising some of eggs from the mentioned hens. Any thoughts on that?
I should weigh him. He is a tank. Not sure if he is too heavy for the little white layers.
We don't have anything like the predator pressure here that usa does. Only pythons, monitor lizards, foxes, dogs and the very rare Eagle. All readily evaded with electric netting and a good coop. They seem very wary of airborne threats.

I'd say, if your roo has traits you like use him and keep his chicks. If your girls live two years and die (or live 2 years and stop laying) then you watch the chicks closely and hatch eggs only from those who live productive lives past that boundary.