- Sep 23, 2014
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Okay, this is a topic that has fascinated me for a long time, and I've read lots of different opinions over the past several years. I thought I more or less understood what appeared to be the general consensus on silver pied birds...
Appearance-wise -- 80-90% white, plus white eye
Genetically -- white gene plus pied gene plus white eye gene(s) -- some folks say TWO white eye genes are needed.
And perhaps the white "needs" to be a white from a white-eye bird...
The clearest thread I ever read on it is here:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/571197/inheritance-of-silver-pied
But then -- oh my -- I joined BYC a few months ago and suddenly started reading about "silver dusting" -- and there doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus about it.
In the thread I linked above, there is some mention that perhaps silver dusting results from having two copies of the white eye gene, but I don't know whether that has been verified.
It seems to me that another possibility is that there is a variant white eye gene mutation, or possibly another leucistic gene which causes that silver dusting. Or maybe it really is just the two white eye genes working together.
If two white eye genes alone are enough to cause silvering, than all homozygous white eye birds should be silver dusted.
It seems to me that there are two different things we are talking about (as @DylansMom has been asking):
First, there is the question of the amount of white compared to the amount of "color" on the bird (i.e., what percent white is the bird?)
Second, there is the question of the presence or absence of the "silver dusting," which may be a result of homogeneity for white eye (TWO white eye genes).
The percentage of color is reportedly controlled by whether the bird is heterozygous for white & pied (believed to be alleles, resulting in a visibly pied bird), or homozygous for white (visibly a white bird), or homozygous for pied (visibly a dark pied bird).
In order to get "silver pied," you supposedly need to add white eye gene(s) to get the loud pied (%50 percent white) up to 80-90% white. It sounds as though if you do that and the bird has one white eyed gene, it may not get the silver dusting, and perhaps the silver dusting shows up only when there are TWO of them (homozygous for white eye)
Or then again, what if there's a "different" gene out there?
@DylansMom has a bird which would appear to be 50% white or so -- which by consensus would typically indicate heterozygous for pied/white, and the bird is clearly, visibly "dusted," which would theoretically mean homozygous for white eye -- IF that is how it "works" to get the silver dusting. But theoretically, based on the explanations I've read, then the bird should have much less color on him, if indeed the addition of the white eye leucistic gene is also responsible for reducing the amount of color expressed on a loud pied (white gene/pied gene) bird.
So far, the leucistic genes I've read about in peafowl consist of:
white gene -- requires two to create a white (leucistic) bird
pied gene -- an allele (or so it is thought) for the white gene which results in partial (or patchy) leucism
white eye gene -- a leucistic gene which operates at a different place than the white/pied alleles, and which results in suppressing color (partial leucism) at a very specific location on the bird -- the center of the eyes in the train. It also apparently can express on some feathers in a hen. It is dominant -- so only one gene is required to express it -- but by most accounts, having TWO white eye genes results in a much stronger expression and is necessary in order to have a completely white eyed train. And possibly two white eye genes results in a silver dusted looking bird.
Also unexplained is the possibility of "progressive" pied... a pied that increases the amount of white as the bird gets older, which is reported to happen to some birds. And reportedly, some white eye birds gain increasing numbers of leucistic ocelli as they age? So perhaps that would be a progressive gene as well -- or maybe a phenotypically pied bird with the progressive pied gene (if it exists) combined with white eye gene(s), most likely a single one (since two white eye genes would presumably result in a totally white eyed train from the outset?)
Is it possible that DylansMom's bird is homozygous for pied (genetically a "dark" pied) as well as homozygous for white eyed? If the doubled white eye genes do act to further restrict the color on a pied bird, then instead of appearing mostly colored as a bird with two pied genes (rather than one white/one pied) would usually look, perhaps the addition of the doubled white eye could result in a bird which appears "loud pied" rather than "silver pied 80-90% white)" but with the silver dusting normally seen in the "silver pied with silver dusting" birds?
The only other explanation I can think of is again, that maybe not all our white eye and/or pied and/or white genes are identical mutations, and there could be some variants floating around out there.
Thoughts?
Appearance-wise -- 80-90% white, plus white eye
Genetically -- white gene plus pied gene plus white eye gene(s) -- some folks say TWO white eye genes are needed.
And perhaps the white "needs" to be a white from a white-eye bird...
The clearest thread I ever read on it is here:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/571197/inheritance-of-silver-pied
But then -- oh my -- I joined BYC a few months ago and suddenly started reading about "silver dusting" -- and there doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus about it.
In the thread I linked above, there is some mention that perhaps silver dusting results from having two copies of the white eye gene, but I don't know whether that has been verified.
It seems to me that another possibility is that there is a variant white eye gene mutation, or possibly another leucistic gene which causes that silver dusting. Or maybe it really is just the two white eye genes working together.
If two white eye genes alone are enough to cause silvering, than all homozygous white eye birds should be silver dusted.
It seems to me that there are two different things we are talking about (as @DylansMom has been asking):
First, there is the question of the amount of white compared to the amount of "color" on the bird (i.e., what percent white is the bird?)
Second, there is the question of the presence or absence of the "silver dusting," which may be a result of homogeneity for white eye (TWO white eye genes).
The percentage of color is reportedly controlled by whether the bird is heterozygous for white & pied (believed to be alleles, resulting in a visibly pied bird), or homozygous for white (visibly a white bird), or homozygous for pied (visibly a dark pied bird).
In order to get "silver pied," you supposedly need to add white eye gene(s) to get the loud pied (%50 percent white) up to 80-90% white. It sounds as though if you do that and the bird has one white eyed gene, it may not get the silver dusting, and perhaps the silver dusting shows up only when there are TWO of them (homozygous for white eye)
Or then again, what if there's a "different" gene out there?
@DylansMom has a bird which would appear to be 50% white or so -- which by consensus would typically indicate heterozygous for pied/white, and the bird is clearly, visibly "dusted," which would theoretically mean homozygous for white eye -- IF that is how it "works" to get the silver dusting. But theoretically, based on the explanations I've read, then the bird should have much less color on him, if indeed the addition of the white eye leucistic gene is also responsible for reducing the amount of color expressed on a loud pied (white gene/pied gene) bird.
So far, the leucistic genes I've read about in peafowl consist of:
white gene -- requires two to create a white (leucistic) bird
pied gene -- an allele (or so it is thought) for the white gene which results in partial (or patchy) leucism
white eye gene -- a leucistic gene which operates at a different place than the white/pied alleles, and which results in suppressing color (partial leucism) at a very specific location on the bird -- the center of the eyes in the train. It also apparently can express on some feathers in a hen. It is dominant -- so only one gene is required to express it -- but by most accounts, having TWO white eye genes results in a much stronger expression and is necessary in order to have a completely white eyed train. And possibly two white eye genes results in a silver dusted looking bird.
Also unexplained is the possibility of "progressive" pied... a pied that increases the amount of white as the bird gets older, which is reported to happen to some birds. And reportedly, some white eye birds gain increasing numbers of leucistic ocelli as they age? So perhaps that would be a progressive gene as well -- or maybe a phenotypically pied bird with the progressive pied gene (if it exists) combined with white eye gene(s), most likely a single one (since two white eye genes would presumably result in a totally white eyed train from the outset?)
Is it possible that DylansMom's bird is homozygous for pied (genetically a "dark" pied) as well as homozygous for white eyed? If the doubled white eye genes do act to further restrict the color on a pied bird, then instead of appearing mostly colored as a bird with two pied genes (rather than one white/one pied) would usually look, perhaps the addition of the doubled white eye could result in a bird which appears "loud pied" rather than "silver pied 80-90% white)" but with the silver dusting normally seen in the "silver pied with silver dusting" birds?
The only other explanation I can think of is again, that maybe not all our white eye and/or pied and/or white genes are identical mutations, and there could be some variants floating around out there.
Thoughts?
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