Marek's questions, non urgent, can I do more

[Chickythom]

This is a non urgent question. I would love feedback from others dealing with Marek's in their flock.

We have confirmed Marek's in our flock. As you can imagine we have lost quite a few birds. Some to spontaneous death and others to neuro symptoms. However, most recently our 20 week old buff Orpington roo who was managing with a neurological deficit expired after presenting with blue comb and waddle for a few days. He also had high liquid and scant green particles in his poop. Today we have two hens that are in the process of dying. One was by far the runt of the flock. The other was a robust member of the flock. Both were pinking out in the face. It is possible the large female had laid but I am unsure. These two are presenting with symptoms I have not seen before. They are very quiet, lethargic, closed eyes, off food/water, puffy. The runt also had poor feather condition. I am not sure of their poop. I suspect it is Marek's related or possibly yolk peritonitis, at least in the larger female. I also have one "perfect specimen" female who I am sure is laying, aeepars well, but has poop on butt feathers. No other birds except for one of my remaining Roos who is unable to walk has a dirty bum.

We have never wormed them. At 13 weeks we had a decal eval of one of our birds that did not show pathogens. They get acv, garlic, electrolytes and herbs in their water at least 3 times a week. They are on purina organic layer presently. They also can forage in grass and get fruit and veggie snacks multiple times a week. I also give kefir and nutritional yeast with fish oil and oregano oil once a week. I usually include scrambled eggs with shell in the mixture. They get eggshells at least 4 days a week.

I am just at a loss on what else I should/could be doing. I hate losing the birds. I can't tell if it is Marek's, secondary infections, genetics, or laying issues. We purchased the birds to raise for organic eggs and meat. I am concerned about the possibility the meat and or eggs may be contaminated given weakens immune systems, etc. the meat we ate from our seemingly asymptomatic birds seemed fine. Yet, I personally had some gastrointestinal upset I believe was related to our eggs. I usually tolerate eggs well.

Sadly, we simply do not have the means to test or necropsy every dead or dying bird.

I am sorry for rambling. Just trying to determine if there is more I should be doing and I want to ensure I am feeding my family safely. Is there anything I can do without a vet or high cost to ensure egg safety? Has anyone with Marek's had unsafe eggs due to say salmonella, etc? This disease is making me crazy. I have enjoyed raising these birds and I hope to have the fortitude to do it again. This has been a steep learning curve.

Thanks for hanging with me this long. I appreciate any feedback.

Amanda

 

[rebrascora]

Hi Amanda

I am so sorry that you are having such a rough time with your poultry. Marek's is a horrible disease and I understand your heartache and frustration.
I think you are doing everything you can as regards the disease and supporting your flock through it. Whilst things may seem pretty desperate at the moment I think that it is a disease that whilst long lived, peaks during the first few months of the initial outbreak and then settles back into a more low level recurring problem. That has been my experience.
I have eaten meat and eggs from my flock, even eggs from Marek's sufferers without problem. There is usually very little meat on Marek's birds and so it is not worth while processing the cockerels that have it, but if I had a large one that was showing signs, I would still eat it.... just well cooked. I hear what you are saying about secondary infections with Marek's like e-coli and salmonella and if you are concerned it would make sense to cook eggs thoroughly, but I think the risk is low. Once birds are sick with secondary infections they normally stop laying pretty quickly. Of course having a mixed flock means that I have a good idea of which birds have laid which eggs, so if I have a suspect bird, I can usually easily identify their eggs and put them to one side for hard boiling. If you have a flock made up of just one or two breeds this is not possible.

I'm not sure there is anything else I can add to what you are already doing, but just wanted to say hang in there, it does get better. If you can broody rear some chicks so that they are exposed from day one, particularly hardier breeds or farmyard mutts, you may have more success. There will still be the odd one or two that succumb to it but in my experience it tails off over time.

Best wishes

Barbara

 

[Chickythom]

Hi Amanda

I am so sorry that you are having such a rough time with your poultry. Marek's is a horrible disease and I understand your heartache and frustration.
I think you are doing everything you can as regards the disease and supporting your flock through it. Whilst things may seem pretty desperate at the moment I think that it is a disease that whilst long lived, peaks during the first few months of the initial outbreak and then settles back into a more low level recurring problem. That has been my experience.
I have eaten meat and eggs from my flock, even eggs from Marek's sufferers without problem. There is usually very little meat on Marek's birds and so it is not worth while processing the cockerels that have it, but if I had a large one that was showing signs, I would still eat it.... just well cooked. I hear what you are saying about secondary infections with Marek's like e-coli and salmonella and if you are concerned it would make sense to cook eggs thoroughly, but I think the risk is low. Once birds are sick with secondary infections they normally stop laying pretty quickly. Of course having a mixed flock means that I have a good idea of which birds have laid which eggs, so if I have a suspect bird, I can usually easily identify their eggs and put them to one side for hard boiling. If you have a flock made up of just one or two breeds this is not possible.

I'm not sure there is anything else I can add to what you are already doing, but just wanted to say hang in there, it does get better. If you can broody rear some chicks so that they are exposed from day one, particularly hardier breeds or farmyard mutts, you may have more success. There will still be the odd one or two that succumb to it but in my experience it tails off over time.

Best wishes

Barbara

Thank you for your insight and support! You are always so helpful! My whole flock are BO so I really am not sure who has laid which egg. They all look pretty much the same. I will consider hardboiling them all. My husband has agreed to eat some this weekend. He usually has an ironclad stomach so we will see if he has any issues.

Thanks again!

 

[microchick]

X2 rebrascora. Well said.

Chickythom, I am so sorry to hear that you are dealing with Marek's also. There are more of us than you might think here on the forum and I agree with rebrascora, hang in there.

Personally, I have found that my Buff O's have been more susceptible to Marek's sudden decline and death than my other birds. I hate it. I love my roosters dearly and they just don't last much longer than two years. I am down to one BO rooster who has ocular Marek's and a very young (4 weeks) cockerel who is my baby.

In all honesty, dealing with Marek's is a lot like doing CPR. They told us once in a CPR class that even if you co everything right, the person you are doing cpr on has a good chance of dying. It's the same with Marek's.

You are doing fine. Keep your birds as healthy as you can. Treat any infections immediately. Feed them a good quality of food and supplement them with heathy treats and probiotics. Keep on top of parasites, hope for the best and expect the worst. As you have learned by now, no matter what you do to help a bird with active Marek's the outcome is always the same.

I've lost over 15 birds in the past 8 months but things have slowed down. It's been a rough year though so I am keeping my fingers crossed that I'm through the worse although I have about 5 birds still showing signs of active Marek's.

Time will tell.

 

[Chickythom]

X2 rebrascora. Well said.

Chickythom, I am so sorry to hear that you are dealing with Marek's also. There are more of us than you might think here on the forum and I agree with rebrascora, hang in there.

Personally, I have found that my Buff O's have been more susceptible to Marek's sudden decline and death than my other birds. I hate it. I love my roosters dearly and they just don't last much longer than two years. I am down to one BO rooster who has ocular Marek's and a very young (4 weeks) cockerel who is my baby.

In all honesty, dealing with Marek's is a lot like doing CPR. They told us once in a CPR class that even if you co everything right, the person you are doing cpr on has a good chance of dying. It's the same with Marek's.

You are doing fine. Keep your birds as healthy as you can. Treat any infections immediately. Feed them a good quality of food and supplement them with heathy treats and probiotics. Keep on top of parasites, hope for the best and expect the worst. As you have learned by now, no matter what you do to help a bird with active Marek's the outcome is always the same.

I've lost over 15 birds in the past 8 months but things have slowed down. It's been a rough year though so I am keeping my fingers crossed that I'm through the worse although I have about 5 birds still showing signs of active Marek's.

Time will tell.

Thank you for your feedback. Have you found a breed who is more resistant or has been less likely to succumb to the disease? Have you ever had issues with your eggs?

They seem to die in waves. They can seem so well and then boom, 3 dead in a span of a few days. I have 2more that I don't think will make it more than a week.

Should I be too concerned about the "perfect specimen" with some poop on her butt fluff?

Thanks again!
Amanda

 

[microchick]

I am pushing towards breeding for resistance. My Buff Os which I adore are proving to be the most vulnerable to Marek's. I have lost a few Welsummers but mainly the Buff O's so I am not allowing them to brood more BO chicks. My barnyard Old English Game Bantams are proving to be pretty tough. I have lost two to what I suspect is Marek's, one for certain as it presented with textbook leg paralysis at 9 weeks of age.

Next spring I am planning to bring in Egyptian Fayoumis chicks. Fayoumis are reported to be highly resistant to Marek's along with a host of other known poultry diseases as well as parasites. I am also demanding that they be vaccinated. I know there are pro's and con's to vaccinating, but because of the strength and ferocity of the line of Marek's that has hit my flock, I feel I have no choice at this point other than to vaccinate any chicks that come onto the property. I also plan to keep them isolated from the main flock for at least 5-6 weeks to give their immune systems a chance to develope. My hope is by Feb of next year I will know what number of my original flock is going to be resistant to the disease and I will be able to cross my survivors with the Fayoumi's.

I read somewhere that diarrhea is somewhat common in Marek's disease. I lost one rooster to debilitating diarrhea that persisted even after he was wormed. Also, coccidiosis can cause diarrhea so another fecal float may be indicated.

I would keep your hen's bottom clean and trim back her feathers if you have to. Fly blow would be disastrous to her immune system.

PS. Regarding eggs. No, other than my hens' egg production decreasing I haven't had any problems with peritonitis or binding.....so far, knock on wood. Probably just jinxed myself. Other than blood spots and the occasional meat spot the eggs and hen's reproductive systems seems to be normal. My oldest hens will be 3 this coming March so I don't know how much of their production drop off is age related, heat related, molt related this time of the year or Marek's related.

 

[Chickythom]

I am pushing towards breeding for resistance. My Buff Os which I adore are proving to be the most vulnerable to Marek's. I have lost a few Welsummers but mainly the Buff O's so I am not allowing them to brood more BO chicks. My barnyard Old English Game Bantams are proving to be pretty tough. I have lost two to what I suspect is Marek's, one for certain as it presented with textbook leg paralysis at 9 weeks of age.

Next spring I am planning to bring in Egyptian Fayoumis chicks. Fayoumis are reported to be highly resistant to Marek's along with a host of other known poultry diseases as well as parasites. I am also demanding that they be vaccinated. I know there are pro's and con's to vaccinating, but because of the strength and ferocity of the line of Marek's that has hit my flock, I feel I have no choice at this point other than to vaccinate any chicks that come onto the property. I also plan to keep them isolated from the main flock for at least 5-6 weeks to give their immune systems a chance to develope. My hope is by Feb of next year I will know what number of my original flock is going to be resistant to the disease and I will be able to cross my survivors with the Fayoumi's.

I read somewhere that diarrhea is somewhat common in Marek's disease. I lost one rooster to debilitating diarrhea that persisted even after he was wormed. Also, coccidiosis can cause diarrhea so another fecal float may be indicated.

I would keep your hen's bottom clean and trim back her feathers if you have to. Fly blow would be disastrous to her immune system.

PS. Regarding eggs. No, other than my hens' egg production decreasing I haven't had any problems with peritonitis or binding.....so far, knock on wood. Probably just jinxed myself. Other than blood spots and the occasional meat spot the eggs and hen's reproductive systems seems to be normal. My oldest hens will be 3 this coming March so I don't know how much of their production drop off is age related, heat related, molt related this time of the year or Marek's related.

Thank you for your insight!

 

[msyfoopoo]

This is a non urgent question. I would love feedback from others dealing with Marek's in their flock.

We have confirmed Marek's in our flock. As you can imagine we have lost quite a few birds. Some to spontaneous death and others to neuro symptoms. However, most recently our 20 week old buff Orpington roo who was managing with a neurological deficit expired after presenting with blue comb and waddle for a few days. He also had high liquid and scant green particles in his poop. Today we have two hens that are in the process of dying. One was by far the runt of the flock. The other was a robust member of the flock. Both were pinking out in the face. It is possible the large female had laid but I am unsure. These two are presenting with symptoms I have not seen before. They are very quiet, lethargic, closed eyes, off food/water, puffy. The runt also had poor feather condition. I am not sure of their poop. I suspect it is Marek's related or possibly yolk peritonitis, at least in the larger female. I also have one "perfect specimen" female who I am sure is laying, aeepars well, but has poop on butt feathers. No other birds except for one of my remaining Roos who is unable to walk has a dirty bum.

We have never wormed them. At 13 weeks we had a decal eval of one of our birds that did not show pathogens. They get acv, garlic, electrolytes and herbs in their water at least 3 times a week. They are on purina organic layer presently. They also can forage in grass and get fruit and veggie snacks multiple times a week. I also give kefir and nutritional yeast with fish oil and oregano oil once a week. I usually include scrambled eggs with shell in the mixture. They get eggshells at least 4 days a week.

I am just at a loss on what else I should/could be doing. I hate losing the birds. I can't tell if it is Marek's, secondary infections, genetics, or laying issues. We purchased the birds to raise for organic eggs and meat. I am concerned about the possibility the meat and or eggs may be contaminated given weakens immune systems, etc. the meat we ate from our seemingly asymptomatic birds seemed fine. Yet, I personally had some gastrointestinal upset I believe was related to our eggs. I usually tolerate eggs well.

Sadly, we simply do not have the means to test or necropsy every dead or dying bird.

I am sorry for rambling. Just trying to determine if there is more I should be doing and I want to ensure I am feeding my family safely. Is there anything I can do without a vet or high cost to ensure egg safety? Has anyone with Marek's had unsafe eggs due to say salmonella, etc? This disease is making me crazy. I have enjoyed raising these birds and I hope to have the fortitude to do it again. This has been a steep learning curve.

Thanks for hanging with me this long. I appreciate any feedback.

Amanda

 

[msyfoopoo]

Hi Amanda - My vet charged $95 for the necropsy, and the University of Wisconsin Vet Diagnostic Lab charged me $135 for the pathology. Though rather pricey, now I know I have Marek's in my flock; there is no question now, and I can take the actions needed to help stop the spread.

 

[Chickythom]

Hi Amanda - My vet charged $95 for the necropsy, and the University of Wisconsin Vet Diagnostic Lab charged me $135 for the pathology. Though rather pricey, now I know I have Marek's in my flock; there is no question now, and I can take the actions needed to help stop the spread.

Hi! Thanks for your response. We had two birds necropsied and full pathology ran too... about 400$ later we know we have Marek's, this was about 8 weeks ago. I have spoke to the chicken pathologist about it, etc. I simply am not sure how to differentiate death by Marek's, death by secondary infection, death due to bad genes/egg issues, and if I should be concerned about consuming eggs without knowing "cause of death" or "cause of symptoms" with each bird that shows signs of being unwell or has a dirty butt. I am also unsure how aggressive I should be about interventions and medical care in a flock that I know has Marek's and I am already doing all I can to minimize stress, feed them well, etc. thanks again for your help!