Soil FERTILITY question (& thoughts)! Thanks for reading!

[nao57]

So... I had a really interesting thought when watering the garden recently. I'd been wondering about it awhile but kept forgetting to post it here. So here goes...

When you go start your garden, you generally put down compost or fertilizer, or steer compost, or whatever... and you also already have some of those nutrients already in the soil. Also here's some chemical formulas for dirt... stuff.

Silicia Dioxide is sand. SIO2.

Clay (which we have a lot of) is broken down as part sand, part Al2O3, part Fe2O3, part FeO, part CaO, part MgO, part K2O, part Na2O, etc.... you might have other things also. But most of us get some clay soil and then there's other things. I listed that list for clay because that's what the internet says is in a lot of clay stuff. (That was the list for Bentonite Clay, there's other types of clay also.)

You don't need to know every chemical formula out there for everything. But, here's where I wanted to go with this... when you look at that list there are many 'dust' atoms in there that make up everything. (Adam was created from 'dust' (AKA atoms... adams became Adam).) Well my joke aside, there's stuff there. And we have a lot of dirt in our yards all over the place. You don't run out of dirt. And if you kept digging in your yard you'd never finish trying to go as deep as...whatever...

So my question is, I wonder if the plants and trees can only pick up certain sizes of the minerals around them? You wouldn't find dirt in the vegetable plant for example if you cut it open. So is it reasonable to think they can only pick up small elements of a particular size? And what would be the size they could pick up compared to what they can't? (This is why I listed the chemical formula for clay, sand.) If there's still stuff there, if there's dirt there, there must be matter. So perhaps they can only get the finite amounts of a certain range? What do you think about this?

And part of the reasoning for this is... when we think of fertilizing the garden we usually think... well it seems like its got enough. Or if it doesn't have enough we think, I need more fertilizer. But maybe there's still stuff there but that its not in the size range the plants can pick up in water? (And maybe it has to be broken up in light enough material for water to pick it up? And if that's the case, could you actually create fertilizer by breaking rocks and dirt into dust around them?

If there's no end to dirt, in the yard or garden... there has to be something in that dirt... maybe its just not the right size?


...


Side note; when you research regenerative agriculture, they say that regenerative agriculture and 'Carbon farming' are actually the same thing. That basically when buffalo roamed the plains, the carbin in the soil was 12%+ (more or less), and that that made it so they could grow ANYTHING. But when the carbon level went down then you lost fertility and ability to produce. (But they made shortcuts with trying to use chemical fertilizers instead. Which IS NOT the SAME!) Right now a lot of soils are less than 2% carbon, and its MUCH harder to grow in them with this as the case.

Part of why this is such an interesting side note is CARBON holds other atoms together! It holds everything alive together. and its a basic building block of life. So you WANT carbon because it pulls other things in there with it!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

No. Really not.

Usual issues are:

Wrong pH. Plants depend on chemical reactions to both absorb and metabolize nutrients. if the pH is too high, or too low, those reactions are less efficient, effectively "starving" the plant, even if the nutrients are present in normally sufficient quantity.

Wrong soil density. Some plants need very loose soils - they don't root well in desne soils, and as result, can't extend their roots far enough to get adequate quantity of the nutrients they need. The reverse is also true - some plants prefer denser soils. Very little prefers true clays.

Wrong holding capacity. Soil is either too dry - plant dehydrates or too wet - root rot. (there are other issues as well, but those are the big two). One popular hydroponic method is flood and dump - essentially, the tray (a soil substitute) floods until the roots are completely submerged, able to take up water and nutrients throughout the root structure, then the tray "dumps", emptying by way of siphon, allowing the roots to dry some before the cycle repeats.

Inadequate nutrients. This is what people throwing bags of fertilizer can actually fix, ensuring enough nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. Less commonly, Iron, Manganese, Selenium, others. of course, if your problem is 1, 2, or 3, no amount of fertilizer addition will fix your soil.

Nutrients bound in unavailable forms. This is closest to your "wrong size" supposition. Some compounds are easier to break down than others - and some result in toxic levels of undesired nutrients (like copper) when they are broken down into useful bits. Copper sulfate is a good example - sulphur "sweetens" soil, adjusting the ph. Good for some plants. Many plants make use of sulphur in the soil, as well (brassica are a good example). But pour copper sulfate our your plants, and they are good as dead. (Copper Sulfate is the blue liquid added to pools as an algicide.)

Final issue worth noting is a lack of beneficial organisms, or an excess of detrimental organisms. There are all sorts of insects, nematodes, etc, chich are bad for plants, but there are also beneficial bacterial which help plants make use of nutrients in their environment.

 

[Perris]

the missing link @nao57 is fungi. They turn elements in soil into molecules that plants can absorb, and sometimes they even deliver it via mycelium right into the plant's roots, in exchange for photosynthesis products that the plants supply to them.

Modern farming practices and monocultures in particular are disastrous for soil life in general and fungi in particular. They turn living soil into dead dirt. You need to be reading in biology, not chemistry, if you want to help, not harm, your yard.

 

[Sally PB]

Soil is a system. When all the right ingredients are there, it works amazingly well. When one or some of them are missing or out of balance, performance wanes. Get it messed up enough, and nothing grows.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

Everyone already covered everything, but I wanted to add that in the US you can search your local agricultural department for soil sample maps where you can see the general composition of your soil. You can even look up your property. As for minerals it is not as exact, but you can google maps of the entire US with mineral levels in the soil. If you are really curious you can also send your own soil samples to be tested. I need to get new ones done, but I have soil, forage and water tests done because I have horses. I have their mineral and vitamin supplements balanced off of the results, but I also use them as a guide for my gardening as well.

 

[nao57]

the missing link @nao57 is fungi. They turn elements in soil into molecules that plants can absorb, and sometimes they even deliver it via mycelium right into the plant's roots, in exchange for photosynthesis products that the plants supply to them.

Modern farming practices and monocultures in particular are disastrous for soil life in general and fungi in particular. They turn living soil into dead dirt. You need to be reading in biology, not chemistry, if you want to help, not harm, your yard.

I agree with you on farming practices. And the soil isn't regenerating when doing it wrong. Thanks for commenting. And yes I'm interested in a more stable healthy form of doing it. (I only quoted chemistry stuff above to reference that there must be stuff in there, just not broken down).

The information on fungi that you put up I hadn't really looked into. So that's an interesting idea. Thank you very much.

 

[nao57]

Everyone already covered everything, but I wanted to add that in the US you can search your local agricultural department for soil sample maps where you can see the general composition of your soil. You can even look up your property. As for minerals it is not as exact, but you can google maps of the entire US with mineral levels in the soil. If you are really curious you can also send your own soil samples to be tested. I need to get new ones done, but I have soil, forage and water tests done because I have horses. I have their mineral and vitamin supplements balanced off of the results, but I also use them as a guide for my gardening as well.

Thank you.

If you have horses, that should be putting a lot back into the soil if you compost their left overs. But I'm pretty sure you knew that. You have some good ideas.

 

[nao57]

Soil is a system. When all the right ingredients are there, it works amazingly well. When one or some of them are missing or out of balance, performance wanes. Get it messed up enough, and nothing grows.

Thank you.

 

[PimsGarden]

So... I had a really interesting thought when watering the garden recently. I'd been wondering about it awhile but kept forgetting to post it here. So here goes...

When you go start your garden, you generally put down compost or fertilizer, or steer compost, or whatever... and you also already have some of those nutrients already in the soil. Also here's some chemical formulas for dirt... stuff.

Silicia Dioxide is sand. SIO2.

Clay (which we have a lot of) is broken down as part sand, part Al2O3, part Fe2O3, part FeO, part CaO, part MgO, part K2O, part Na2O, etc.... you might have other things also. But most of us get some clay soil and then there's other things. I listed that list for clay because that's what the internet says is in a lot of clay stuff. (That was the list for Bentonite Clay, there's other types of clay also.)

You don't need to know every chemical formula out there for everything. But, here's where I wanted to go with this... when you look at that list there are many 'dust' atoms in there that make up everything. (Adam was created from 'dust' (AKA atoms... adams became Adam).) Well my joke aside, there's stuff there. And we have a lot of dirt in our yards all over the place. You don't run out of dirt. And if you kept digging in your yard you'd never finish trying to go as deep as...whatever...

So my question is, I wonder if the plants and trees can only pick up certain sizes of the minerals around them? You wouldn't find dirt in the vegetable plant for example if you cut it open. So is it reasonable to think they can only pick up small elements of a particular size? And what would be the size they could pick up compared to what they can't? (This is why I listed the chemical formula for clay, sand.) If there's still stuff there, if there's dirt there, there must be matter. So perhaps they can only get the finite amounts of a certain range? What do you think about this?

And part of the reasoning for this is... when we think of fertilizing the garden we usually think... well it seems like its got enough. Or if it doesn't have enough we think, I need more fertilizer. But maybe there's still stuff there but that its not in the size range the plants can pick up in water? (And maybe it has to be broken up in light enough material for water to pick it up? And if that's the case, could you actually create fertilizer by breaking rocks and dirt into dust around them?

If there's no end to dirt, in the yard or garden... there has to be something in that dirt... maybe its just not the right size?


...


Side note; when you research regenerative agriculture, they say that regenerative agriculture and 'Carbon farming' are actually the same thing. That basically when buffalo roamed the plains, the carbin in the soil was 12%+ (more or less), and that that made it so they could grow ANYTHING. But when the carbon level went down then you lost fertility and ability to produce. (But they made shortcuts with trying to use chemical fertilizers instead. Which IS NOT the SAME!) Right now a lot of soils are less than 2% carbon, and its MUCH harder to grow in them with this as the case.

Part of why this is such an interesting side note is CARBON holds other atoms together! It holds everything alive together. and its a basic building block of life. So you WANT carbon because it pulls other things in there with it!

Honestly you should prob just read a book or two, that's a lot to cover and great that you're interested! Soil science books can be overwhelming imo, but I think a great place to start is The Rodale Book of Composting! It will go over the basics of soil and how it works with plants and then it goes into everything composting and the methods commonly used.

Plants can't utilize the things they needs in the soil without certain living organisms breaking them down into a form that they can take up, it goes into all that. It's such a complex subject and I'm super happy to see you are interested in figuring it out, everyone wants the easy solution of a chemical shortcut but as you may know or will learn... chemicals are not the answer and never will be.

 

[HollowOfWisps]

Thank you.

If you have horses, that should be putting a lot back into the soil if you compost their left overs. But I'm pretty sure you knew that. You have some good ideas.

It is good for the soil! I rotationally graze by rotating my horses to a new pasture every month. Once they are moved to a new pasture we mow the old pasture, clean out the fresh manure adding it to compost pile and then spread old aged compost over the pasture. We are trying to let each pasture sit for 60-90 days to let the parasites cycle out and die without a host along with time for the compost to soak into the soil.