The basics of color......

[horsebackjenn]

Ok, so I'm new and with thousands upon thousands of posts/threads available, I'm having a hard time finding what I'm looking for. And I use the terms I learned researching genetics in horses and dogs, so I apoligize if my terminology is a bit different, feel free to correct me.

If there have been lengthy discussion about these topics, please send links or tell me what threads they are in, and approxamate page numbers if you can.

I know or have learned that
1. Blue turns black to blue and blue to white.
2. Buff turns white to cream and gold to red or lemon
3. choc turns black to brown
4. buff laced, is actually a gold or red colored bird rather than a buff bird with dominant white replacing the black lacing.
5. Partridge is red on a silver penciled bird

What I am still looking for is:
1. Salmon: (like the salmon color of the favorelle) is it the same as buff? or is it a different color altogether, and how exactly does it affect colors
2. Dun: is it the same as chocolate? If not, then how is it different? and what base colors does it affect and how?
3. Is khaki the double dilute for dun?
4. Is there a double dilute for chocolate?
5. what exactly is lavender, which colors does it affect and how does it affect them?

I learned from breeding call ducks, that the browns and blues come in varying degrees of color intensity, and breeders tend to want to name each variation as if it were a color of its own..like a whole new color. Does that happen with chickens as well? Please give some examples (could the chocolate, dun and khaki be an example of that? or the buff/salmon/lemon?)

Is there a good book available that includes and discribes all the colors?

Thanks so much, and I'm sorry if these questions are redundant....I'm sure they are, and that it can't be avoided with the threads being so long, lol. I can't be the only one who's gone through 800+ pages and still not found what I was looking for, lol.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Ok, so I'm new and with thousands upon thousands of posts/threads available, I'm having a hard time finding what I'm looking for. And I use the terms I learned researching genetics in horses and dogs, so I apoligize if my terminology is a bit different, feel free to correct me.

If there have been lengthy discussion about these topics, please send links or tell me what threads they are in, and approxamate page numbers if you can.

I know or have learned that
1. Blue turns black to blue and blue to white.

No. Blue dilutes black. One copy of blue dilutes to blue; two copies dilute to splash. White is not a diluted colour. It is the absence of colour.

2. Buff turns white to cream and gold to red or lemon

No. Colours do not affect white; white affects colours by turning OFF their expression. Recessive white turns off the expression of all colours; dominant white turns off the expression of black pigment. Recessive white can be a little leaky, but mostly is not; a feather here or there occasionally. Dominant white can be very leaky.

3. choc turns black to brown

Yes, choc dilutes black pigment, but only when homozygous (or hemizygous).

4. buff laced, is actually a gold or red colored bird rather than a buff bird with dominant white replacing the black lacing.

Not quite; a buff coloured bird with white lacing.

5. Partridge is red on a silver penciled bird

No. Partridge is gold penciling. Red on a silver penciled bird is not a recognized variety; it is a DQ.


What I am still looking for is:
1. Salmon: (like the salmon color of the favorelle) is it the same as buff? or is it a different color altogether, and how exactly does it affect colors

Salmon as in a faverolle is silver wheaten (E^Wh/E^Wh S/S or S/-) In some other genotypes, the hens have a salmon coloured breast.

2. Dun: is it the same as chocolate? If not, then how is it different? and what base colors does it affect and how?

Dun and choc are two separate genes that can produce similar phenotypes. Dun is incompletely dominant; choc is a sex-linked recessive.

3. Is khaki the double dilute for dun?

Yes

4. Is there a double dilute for chocolate?

No. choc only expresses when pure (choc/choc or choc/-) A Choc+/choc bird is black; however, it can pass the gene to its offspring. You cannot tell the difference by appearance between a Choc+/choc bird and one that is Choc+/Choc+.

5. what exactly is lavender, which colors does it affect and how does it affect them?

Lavender is a recessive gene that dilutes both black and red pigment equally. A solid lavender coloured bird is the variety known as self-blue.

I learned from breeding call ducks, that the browns and blues come in varying degrees of color intensity, and breeders tend to want to name each variation as if it were a color of its own..like a whole new color. Does that happen with chickens as well? Please give some examples (could the chocolate, dun and khaki be an example of that? or the buff/salmon/lemon?)

Not really, and sometimes. Blue is blue, be it light or dark, but if too dark it does not match the standard. choc and het. dun are both known as chocolate, although fawn silver duckwing is a variation on het. dun. It will be interesting to see what if anything happens with the standard as more choc birds are bred and perfected in the US. Also, the standard for khaki requires a white crest. So what happens as khaki is bred and perfected in breeds other than polish? I know I am not breeding my khaki silkies to have white crests. Spangled means two entirely different varieties, depending on breed.

Is there a good book available that includes and discribes all the colors?

Genetics of Chicken Colours

Thanks so much, and I'm sorry if these questions are redundant....I'm sure they are, and that it can't be avoided with the threads being so long, lol. I can't be the only one who's gone through 800+ pages and still not found what I was looking for, lol.

 

[horsebackjenn]

I know or have learned that
1. Blue turns black to blue and blue to white.

No. Blue dilutes black. One copy of blue dilutes to blue; two copies dilute to splash. White is not a diluted colour. It is the absence of colour.

So, if blue dilutes black, then it DOES turn black to blue...right? and an additional copy of blue, then turns that blue to "splash"...which is white in appearance. (I can take a white feather from my splash chicken, hold it up with a feather from a white chicken, and not be able to tell much difference, hence, it turns blue to white...not the genotype, just the phoenotype).

2. Buff turns white to cream and gold to red or lemon

No. Colours do not affect white; white affects colours by turning OFF their expression. Recessive white turns off the expression of all colours; dominant white turns off the expression of black pigment. Recessive white can be a little leaky, but mostly is not; a feather here or there occasionally. Dominant white can be very leaky.

I got the info of Buff turning white to cream and gold to red or lemon right here in one of the forums. I'm just talking basics here, the end result of the gene, not the process. I know how the process works, I just want the end result. Is it correct that f you have a silver-laced bird and breed it to a buff, the white portions of the feathers on offspring should look buff (a cream color in appearance)??? Again....not caring about the process, just the end result....and the gold to red or lemon (I'm assuming that lemon is a yellowish color in appearance, I'm not real sure what the person posting the info meant by "lemon").

3. choc turns black to brown

Yes, choc dilutes black pigment, but only when homozygous (or hemizygous).

4. buff laced, is actually a gold or red colored bird rather than a buff bird with dominant white replacing the black lacing.

Not quite; a buff coloured bird with white lacing.

I got the info regarding buff lacing actually being a gold or red colored bird with dominant white lacing instead of black lacing, instead of a buff colored bird with white lacing from the Wyandotte thread. Are you saying they are incorrect in that statement? Or is it different depending on the breed of bird being discussed? It looks like I wrote my sentence out of sequence, which could have caused some confussion in what I was trying to say.

5. Partridge is red on a silver penciled bird

No. Partridge is gold penciling. Red on a silver penciled bird is not a recognized variety; it is a DQ.

The partridge rooster pretty much look red all over in varying degrees (from what I can see in pictures), and the hens do not look white in appearnce with only gold pencilling.... so that's where I got my wording from. Maybe its an illusion that causes them to look more red (reddish, orange, gold, whatever) than just the pencilling. So, the Partridge gene simply turns the pencilling to a reddish looking color??? Does it affect any other colors or patterns?


What I am still looking for is:
1. Salmon: (like the salmon color of the favorelle) is it the same as buff? or is it a different color altogether, and how exactly does it affect colors

Salmon as in a faverolle is silver wheaten (E^Wh/E^Wh S/S or S/-) In some other genotypes, the hens have a salmon coloured breast.

What is this silver wheaten color called in wyandottes?
Are there any other varieties of wheaten? (I know of silver wheaton and blue wheaton....are there others?)
What affect does the wheaten gene have on other colors? (is it a base color, or is it a diluting gene?)

2. Dun: is it the same as chocolate? If not, then how is it different? and what base colors does it affect and how?

Dun and choc are two separate genes that can produce similar phenotypes. Dun is incompletely dominant; choc is a sex-linked recessive.

Do the Dun and Chocolate colors only affect black pigment? Do they have any affect on any other color? If so, what affects does it have and on which colors. (just phonotypes, not genetotypes).

3. Is khaki the double dilute for dun?

Yes

Do wyandottes have dun and khaki? Is it called something else?

4. Is there a double dilute for chocolate?

No. choc only expresses when pure (choc/choc or choc/-) A Choc+/choc bird is black; however, it can pass the gene to its offspring. You cannot tell the difference by appearance between a Choc+/choc bird and one that is Choc+/Choc+.

5. what exactly is lavender, which colors does it affect and how does it affect them?

Lavender is a recessive gene that dilutes both black and red pigment equally. A solid lavender coloured bird is the variety known as self-blue.

I learned from breeding call ducks, that the browns and blues come in varying degrees of color intensity, and breeders tend to want to name each variation as if it were a color of its own..like a whole new color. Does that happen with chickens as well? Please give some examples (could the chocolate, dun and khaki be an example of that? or the buff/salmon/lemon?)

Not really, and sometimes. Blue is blue, be it light or dark, but if too dark it does not match the standard. choc and het. dun are both known as chocolate, although fawn silver duckwing is a variation on het. dun. It will be interesting to see what if anything happens with the standard as more choc birds are bred and perfected in the US. Also, the standard for khaki requires a white crest. So what happens as khaki is bred and perfected in breeds other than polish? I know I am not breeding my khaki silkies to have white crests. Spangled means two entirely different varieties, depending on breed.

Is there a good book available that includes and discribes all the colors?

Genetics of Chicken Colours

Thanks for the recommendation, can't wait to get it ordered. I hope it starts out simple before it gets into the genotypes. I can understand genetypes pretty well, but before I can get into it I have to understand the effects (end result) first....the phenotype. So, there's a method to my madness, I just learn it in different steps than other people I guess.

Like, for example, I already know why a "splash" blue feather looks white, but whatever the reason, it still looks white, so that's the term I used. What I do care about is if the feather I am holding in my hand is actually buff, or is it instead a just a light shade of a gold/red/orangeish color (as in the buff laced wyandotte). Which, judging by your answer and the other answeres I've found in different threads, it appears to be different depending on the breed being discussed.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Chickens have two pigments in their plumage: black (base colour) and red/gold (ground colour). Colour genes can dilute or enhance the colour, or move it around the feather or body. A very good place to start learning is Genetics of Chickencolors and Basics. I'll reply to your follow-on comments in my next post, but read through the link, first.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

I know or have learned that
1. Blue turns black to blue and blue to white.

No. Blue dilutes black. One copy of blue dilutes to blue; two copies dilute to splash. White is not a diluted colour. It is the absence of colour.

So, if blue dilutes black, then it DOES turn black to blue...right? and an additional copy of blue, then turns that blue to "splash"...which is white in appearance. (I can take a white feather from my splash chicken, hold it up with a feather from a white chicken, and not be able to tell much difference, hence, it turns blue to white...not the genotype, just the phoenotype).

Splash background should not be white, although it sometimes is. It should be "slaty blue and white with a faint bluish grey tinge. Blue in feathers in the form of large irregular shaped blobs" The undercolour is "slaty blue and sooty white." Here are some splash birds:


Not my birds:


My birds:







2. Buff turns white to cream and gold to red or lemon

No. Colours do not affect white; white affects colours by turning OFF their expression. Recessive white turns off the expression of all colours; dominant white turns off the expression of black pigment. Recessive white can be a little leaky, but mostly is not; a feather here or there occasionally. Dominant white can be very leaky.

I got the info of Buff turning white to cream and gold to red or lemon right here in one of the forums. I'm just talking basics here, the end result of the gene, not the process. I know how the process works, I just want the end result. Is it correct that f you have a silver-laced bird and breed it to a buff, the white portions of the feathers on offspring should look buff (a cream color in appearance)??? Again....not caring about the process, just the end result....and the gold to red or lemon (I'm assuming that lemon is a yellowish color in appearance, I'm not real sure what the person posting the info meant by "lemon").

Not to cast aspersions, but not everything written by everyone here is accurate. Some people I have more faith in their knowledge than I do with others. No idea who I am contradicting, or even the specific information. Just basing my reply to your comments. Buff is a mix of genes, and can be acquired through different genotypes. White is the absence of colour. Dominant white allows for red/gold pigment, and can leak black pigment. However, the red or gold do not MIX with the white (as in mixing paints). Gold does mix with silver to create golden (only possible in males as it is a sex-linked gene). Golden could be considered creamy looking.

A buff bird by definition has gold ground, and a silver laced by definition has silver ground. Bred together you end up with golden males and gold or silver females depending on which bird was which colour.

Check out http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/theory.html#gen_theory_melanin and move your curser as mentioned in the table. This will at least give you a bit of an idea how things can look.

3. choc turns black to brown

Yes, choc dilutes black pigment, but only when homozygous (or hemizygous).

4. buff laced, is actually a gold or red colored bird rather than a buff bird with dominant white replacing the black lacing.

Not quite; a buff coloured bird with white lacing.

I got the info regarding buff lacing actually being a gold or red colored bird with dominant white lacing instead of black lacing, instead of a buff colored bird with white lacing from the Wyandotte thread. Are you saying they are incorrect in that statement? Or is it different depending on the breed of bird being discussed? It looks like I wrote my sentence out of sequence, which could have caused some confussion in what I was trying to say.
I am not aware of a variety with red ground and dominant white lacing. The only red ground laced variety I am aware of is blue laced red.

5. Partridge is red on a silver penciled bird

No. Partridge is gold penciling. Red on a silver penciled bird is not a recognized variety; it is a DQ.

The partridge rooster pretty much look red all over in varying degrees (from what I can see in pictures), and the hens do not look white in appearnce with only gold pencilling.... so that's where I got my wording from. Maybe its an illusion that causes them to look more red (reddish, orange, gold, whatever) than just the pencilling. So, the Partridge gene simply turns the pencilling to a reddish looking color??? Does it affect any other colors or patterns?
No. the pattern gene combined with a partridge base (e^b) creates a penciled pattern on the feathers. If the bird is silver, it is called silver penciled or silver partridge; if the bird is gold, it is called partridge.
From feathersite:
Partridge:



Silver Penciled aka Silver Partridge:



Gold laced:


Buff laced:


Silver laced:


Blue Laced Red:


What I am still looking for is:
1. Salmon: (like the salmon color of the favorelle) is it the same as buff? or is it a different color altogether, and how exactly does it affect colors

Salmon as in a faverolle is silver wheaten (E^Wh/E^Wh S/S or S/-) In some other genotypes, the hens have a salmon coloured breast.

What is this silver wheaten color called in wyandottes?
Are there any other varieties of wheaten? (I know of silver wheaton and blue wheaton....are there others?)
What affect does the wheaten gene have on other colors? (is it a base color, or is it a diluting gene?)
Wheaten is a base. I should have mentioned before that salmon also includes the mahogany gene. I suppose you could make a chocolate wheaten, but I am not aware of anyone having ever done so.

2. Dun: is it the same as chocolate? If not, then how is it different? and what base colors does it affect and how?

Dun and choc are two separate genes that can produce similar phenotypes. Dun is incompletely dominant; choc is a sex-linked recessive.

Do the Dun and Chocolate colors only affect black pigment? Do they have any affect on any other color? If so, what affects does it have and on which colors. (just phonotypes, not genetotypes). IMO, there is a slightly different hue to a silver chocolate versus a gold chocolate, but it is fairly minimal: taupe vs milk brown.

3. Is khaki the double dilute for dun?

Yes

Do wyandottes have dun and khaki? Is it called something else? They can and probably do, but not sure if anyone has done it in this country. It is not recognized here. Ditto for choc, although I know it has been done in England.

4. Is there a double dilute for chocolate?

No. choc only expresses when pure (choc/choc or choc/-) A Choc+/choc bird is black; however, it can pass the gene to its offspring. You cannot tell the difference by appearance between a Choc+/choc bird and one that is Choc+/Choc+.

5. what exactly is lavender, which colors does it affect and how does it affect them?

Lavender is a recessive gene that dilutes both black and red pigment equally. A solid lavender coloured bird is the variety known as self-blue.

I learned from breeding call ducks, that the browns and blues come in varying degrees of color intensity, and breeders tend to want to name each variation as if it were a color of its own..like a whole new color. Does that happen with chickens as well? Please give some examples (could the chocolate, dun and khaki be an example of that? or the buff/salmon/lemon?)

Not really, and sometimes. Blue is blue, be it light or dark, but if too dark it does not match the standard. choc and het. dun are both known as chocolate, although fawn silver duckwing is a variation on het. dun. It will be interesting to see what if anything happens with the standard as more choc birds are bred and perfected in the US. Also, the standard for khaki requires a white crest. So what happens as khaki is bred and perfected in breeds other than polish? I know I am not breeding my khaki silkies to have white crests. Spangled means two entirely different varieties, depending on breed.

Is there a good book available that includes and discribes all the colors?

Genetics of Chicken Colours

Thanks for the recommendation, can't wait to get it ordered. I hope it starts out simple before it gets into the genotypes. I can understand genetypes pretty well, but before I can get into it I have to understand the effects (end result) first....the phenotype. So, there's a method to my madness, I just learn it in different steps than other people I guess.

Like, for example, I already know why a "splash" blue feather looks white, but whatever the reason, it still looks white, so that's the term I used. What I do care about is if the feather I am holding in my hand is actually buff, or is it instead a just a light shade of a gold/red/orangeish color (as in the buff laced wyandotte). Which, judging by your answer and the other answeres I've found in different threads, it appears to be different depending on the breed being discussed.

The book is very readable and explains things by analogy. Makes a complicated subject easy to understand. chickencolours.com has a sample of a few pages that you can download.

 

[horsebackjenn]

Unfortunately, I'm not the typical type of student that can learn the same way everyone else does. I read the page, most of it I already know and what I don't already know, will take me hours and hours to disect it. I need the point, and only the point, before I can understand anything else. Maybe I have aspergers or something, but I obviously can't learn by simply reading it, or I wouldn't be asking so specifically here. I have to visuize it, and I can't do that if the answer has too much extra information. Nice try though, I appreciate the effort.

I know the genetics of horses, dogs and ducks pretty well, but if I may use an analogy, a person can know Spainish and still not be able to speak Italian or French, yet they are all derived from the same basics of "Latin". I understand genetics, I just can't speack "chicken" with it yet.

Maybe I just need to ask better questions. I'll leave out the questions that I understand your answer to, and rewording questions that I think you misunderstood..... or the answer takes me in a different direction than expected, creating completely new questions.

1. Is Partridge a color, or a pattern?
2. Is the bright, brilliant, deep red coloring of the feathers on a partridge bird (specifically the rooster), available on any other patterns?
3. If so, what is it called on those patterns?, because its obvously not called Partridge, or it would be pencilled, right?

4. If you have a salmon/wheaton colored feather next to a buff feather, will they look the same?
I've never seen a salmon fav in person, but in the pictures, the color of their feathers appears to have a more "orange" or "peach" tone to them, where the buffs just look creamy-yellow to me (in person). If my perseption is correct, then the answer to 4 would be "no", which leads to #5. If the answer is "yes", then ignore #s 5 and 6.
5. is the salmon/wheaton color available in wyandottes?,
6. and if so, what it is called?
(I asked a question in another thread, and the answer explained the difficulty of breeding buff wyandottes with a lacing pattern because of the effects of the "wheaton" gene. This lead me to beleive that buff and wheaton were the same color....yet, the buff I have in my yard do not appear to be the same color as the salmon fav are in the pictures.)

7. Is Dun available in Wyandottes?
8. If so, what is it called, if not called "dun"?
9. does Dun effect the appearance of any color besides black-based colors?
for example: if you bred a Dun to a silver or gold laced, would the dun dilute only the black parts of the feather, or would it effect the white or gold parts of the feather as well? (with "gold" meaning any shade of red color) and how so?
(If it does affect the white and/or gold parts of the feather, I want to know what color it turns the white to, or what color it turns the gold to in appearance (the phenotype). Ie: what they will look like, irrespective of the "code" that is related to them).

And a similar question for the chocolate (and being very specific for you, so you don't have to try and explain something that I already know, but was trying to skip over for simplicity)
10. If you cross a homozygous (self) chocolate rooster with a silver or gold laced hen, will it affect only the parts of the feathers that are black, or will it also affect the white or gold portions as well? (with gold meaning any shade of red color). and how so? (phonotype only...what it will look like, irrispective of the related "code").

I can tell you know your stuff, and I envy you for how easy it seems to come to you, but for the sake of simplicity, I really don't need to know to what depth your knowledge goes at this point. One step at a time please, lol. I can usually figure out the code myself, there are code charts all over the internet...but "EE and ee" or "AA or aa" etc, doesn't show me what they look like. ie: White may not be a "color", but when you look at it, its not exactly "transparent". What you see when you look at it is "white".

I do appreciate your trying. I realize I'm not the ideal student, and I'm sorry to make it difficult for you. My brain just doens't work that way.

 

[horsebackjenn]

I got the info regarding buff lacing actually being a gold or red colored bird with dominant white lacing instead of black lacing, instead of a buff colored bird with white lacing from the Wyandotte thread. Are you saying they are incorrect in that statement? Or is it different depending on the breed of bird being discussed? It looks like I wrote my sentence out of sequence, which could have caused some confussion in what I was trying to say.
I am not aware of a variety with red ground and dominant white lacing. The only red ground laced variety I am aware of is blue laced red.

Is the golden laced birds not a red "ground" or base color? When I talk about my gold-laced wyandottes I say "those red birds", because red is what it looks like, it doesn't look gold, or yellow, or yellowish gold...they look red, say for example, when comparing them to crayons, for lack of knowing a better way to put it.

 

[horsebackjenn]

PS, I don't have a clue what they meant by "dominant white lacing", I was just repeating what I read. But we were specifically talking about buff laced wyandottes that they have in Europe, the feathers look reddish beige, but where our golden laced wyandottes have the black on the feathers, those birds have white.

 

[horsebackjenn]

From Feathersite.com, courtesy of Shalom Sadon: a buff laced hen (not splash blr). reddish feather, outlined in white....supposedly "dominant white". So, the question is, is the reddish phenotype of the feathers caused by a red (as in the red/gold in our gold-laced wyandottes), or is it caused by a buff/wheaton/salmon type color.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: I think the White Laced Red Cornish, created by Judge W. H. Card is such a bird.
http://islandexoticsfarm.weebly.com/cornish-bantams.html
Judge Card also wrote this great little pithy book, one of my favs: http://tinyurl.com/oqjdv96

Best,
Karen