The Search for Superbird

[Indyshent]

I've been toodling with the notion of making a new breed since someone brought up the notion much earlier this year in the Hoosier thread. I'm a biology major at IUPUI and a hobby farmer who's trying to fill an unexplored niche in the chicken world and really inculcate some science because I learn much better through doing something with said knowledge as opposed to reading about it.

Things I would like in a chicken:
1. Lays like crazy
2. Doesn't eat much
3. Cold hardy
4. Disease resistant
5. Longer, fancier tails on roosters
6. Neat colors not seen in industrial layers
7. Autosexing
8. Silkied feathers possibly eventually
9. Egg colors not seen in industrial layers
10. Frost resistant combs (especially double combs and Breda comblessness)

Things I don't want:
1. Overtly harmful mutations
2. Leg feathering (makes treating for mites difficult and birds get more frostbite on feet)
3. Single combs
4. Pea combs because they also get ugly dewlaps
5. Leaning against rose combs because of decreased male fertility... but they're pretty and frost resistant
6. Leaning against muffs because I've seen them curl up and get stuck in eyes
7. No crests because they hamper vision and tend to harbor lice


Almost all of my adult birds left through a series of trades and such, but I'm armed with a few interesting candidates and a bunch of mixed chicks. Adult birds left include a silver laced Polish rooster (David Bowie), five recessive white silkies (both genders), one black OE hen, one blue copper American Marans hen, one black Australorp hen, one buff Orp pullet, and a dinky lemon variant silkie rooster (Lion-O) with a huge, very rough double rose (DvDv RR most likely). He can apparently mate LF Cochin hens and get babies on them, so I'm not worried about him being too dinky to mate Leghorns. Where there's a will, there's a way, I guess (*wink*wink*nudge*nudge*).

Also have Optimus Prime, a 1/4 EE or Isbar, 1/4 Sumatra, 1/2 FBC Marans rooster with a nice tail and a frost-resistant half-Buttercup comb (think he's split for Dc because there's a well formed cup in the farther half of his comb but not the front half). He's a mid-size rooster who might weigh more than the mature Leghorn rooster I used to have here.

Chicks have Marans, Ameraucana (black and lavender), EE, white industrial Leghorn, a few drops of blue Sumatra, production Red (think one of the chicks is part), some Dark Brahma, silver laced Polish, lavender Orp, Coronation Sussex, and a heavily mottled black Breda. Also have six barred Rock chicks.

Possibly no pure Leghorns, but have a bunch of certifiably half-Leghorn chicks with interesting dominant white Exchequer-like coloring. Interestingly, many of these chicks have blue spots or are black barred on those rare colored feathers which means industrial white Leghorns apparently carry barred, which should help with the autosexing later if I can weed out dominant white. Since the only white parent birds were Leghorns, I'm keeping these mottled F1 chicks to see how they turn out because I can guarantee at least one parent with really good attributes. Want to see how quickly these mature and what color to they lay. Seeing mostly single and pea combs, but also at least one V comb (it's flat til it v's at the end) on a blue-spotted probable pullet.

Have one birchen pullet, one blue chick, one chick with the dark Brahma-like coloring, a bunch of black chicks, some with reddish down on the face. Going to see how some of these turn out but likely get rid of all of them.

While I'm hoping to get rid of leg feathering eventually, it's a dominant condition that at least helps me narrow down probable parents. Looking to keep those Breda combless genes in the woodpile.

Because I'm wanting to understand the blond coloring in Lion-O, I'm going to cross him over the recessive white silkies and see what happens. From what I understand, most white silkies are close to wild type partridge under their lab coats. I eventually want the pretty blond hackles and tails to make it into something a bit better for egg production than silkies. He has a silvery gray feather in his tail but is otherwise free of "black". Not sure how to tell if this one feather is lavender or blue, but hoping the test cross can answer because if all the offspring have black areas, he's lavender, and if not, he's blue. There's so interesting modifiers at work in him though because his back is stipled, his shoulders are white and most of his body is white. His feathers are super shiny and lovely, and he's also a lap-worthy guy.

I'd initially hoped to make a laced Leghorn, basically, but it seemed that everyone was looking more for autosexing, fancy eggs and silkie feathers, so I'm trying to make a plan for such birds.

 

[Little Chicken Girl]

That is cool! I am not a breeder expert... but sounds like it could make a great breed... I am really looking forward to see what you come up with!

 

[Indyshent]

Going to keep anything with striped down, apparently, because that pattern combined with barring makes for the best autosexing in a breed. Only had a couple hatch with stripes though may have to wait til later to get the autosexing thing down

https://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/gms9-autosexing-recipe/

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Silkie feathers are not cold hearty. You may want to rethink the feather quality.

 

[Indyshent]

Yeah, it's an odd thing. Figured I might make a silkie version later for hobby farmers who don't do so much free ranging. Silkies pretty much just stick in the coop over winter. As a variant, it would have substantial value as a backyard bird. For the practical poultry keeper in suburban settings, silkied feathers are still useful because silkies don't fly over to visit neighbors or roam much. It's a fun way to add ornamental value to a breed variant. The plan has never been to have all of the breed silkied, but to eventually possibly work on a silkied version.

I prefer the idea of making a superior free range, cold hardy, layer with excellent feed conversion and survival instincts. Ideally, the bird would be docile when handled and flighty outdoors, but thats going to be a trip. Once I get this part down, I might start breeding for ornamental extras.

Industrial Leghorns are a good base but come in one color, and it's a predator magnet. Leghorns are the only bird I've seen that could successfully wear white in hawk filled areas, which means they've got some amazing instincts that I want kept intact. They've got giant combs though, and that's something I hate because--while excellent in a hot climate--it's very prone to injury and frostbite. Industrial Leghorns also don't have the longevity I'd rather see in a breed, so I'll be selecting as much as possible for this trait. All of the Leghorn parents for these mixed chicks were still laying strong at even three years of age (though egg size had declined for one of the hens). While rose comb Leghorns do exist in non-white, they can be difficult to find and are more typically exhibition, instead of production birds.

Legbars are in some ways closer to this ideal bird, but they still have giant combs--and just as bad--crests most of the time. As poor as silkies are in the cold, they don't get frostbite much, in my experience, so I figure silkied feathers are a better quirk than single combs and giant wattles. Frostbite is too painful and ugly a condition to wish on any bird, and I've seen a ton of Leghorns and Legbars with it.

 

[Indyshent]

Most likely, Optimus Prime doesn't have chocolate but is heterozygous extended black (and/or birchen) homozygous gold, and that's what's now peeking through all the super dark blue. His mother was black copper (gold birchen) and his father looked more extended blue partridge (his only certifiable parent was a splash Sumatra, but his mom could've been an Andalusian, Isbar or EE).

Poor guy has an eye injury as of Thursday night. Not sure what happened, but he's holding it closed. Isn't sick or acting off otherwise, and he's he very been ill before. While I was putting Neosporin on his eye, Jake Jake (red slate tom) decided to be a jealous putz and tagged his comb. Poor Optimus can't catch a break and must feel like Charlie Brown.

 

[3riverschick]

I think you need a white chantacler in your project .they are a combination of the silver ,recessive white and dominant white genes which make them that beautiful white. you want a properly bred one from a good breeder, not a hatchery. you'll get that longer tail you like. you'll get the P comb but without the dewlap that you don't like. very cold resistant . clean legs. the striped chicks ...I think what you're seeing (without seeing a picture of them ) is some form of the "wild-type allele" (e+) in their base .
Best,
Karen in Pennsylvania

 

[YdogsflY]

Industrial Leghorns are a good base but come in one color, and it's a predator magnet. Leghorns are the only bird I've seen that could successfully wear white in hawk filled areas, which means they've got some amazing instincts that I want kept intact. They've got giant combs though, and that's something I hate because--while excellent in a hot climate--it's very prone to injury and frostbite. Industrial Leghorns also don't have the longevity I'd rather see in a breed, so I'll be selecting as much as possible for this trait. All of the Leghorn parents for these mixed chicks were still laying strong at even three years of age (though egg size had declined for one of the hens). While rose comb Leghorns do exist in non-white, they can be difficult to find and are more typically exhibition, instead of production birds.

Legbars are in some ways closer to this ideal bird, but they still have giant combs--and just as bad--crests most of the time. As poor as silkies are in the cold, they don't get frostbite much, in my experience, so I figure silkied feathers are a better quirk than single combs and giant wattles. Frostbite is too painful and ugly a condition to wish on any bird, and I've seen a ton of Leghorns and Legbars with it.

Exhibition Leghorns are some of the best quality fowl we have in the USA. They might not lay an egg a day like the commercial layers, but some lines get close. Chicks and hatching eggs also seem to be plentiful certain times of the year.

As for Rose comb and egg laying, don't forget about hamburgs, dominique, and anconas. Anconas are very close in type to leghorns if not identical.

Laying like crazy and longevity are mutually exclusive.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Silkie feathers are not cold hearty. You may want to rethink the feather quality.

Ya I'd skip the whole idea of the silkie feathers.
To bring them in even as just a variety you'd also be bringing in the black skin, extra toe, feathered legs, broodiness, small and poor egg laying. A lot of things you'd have to breed back out just to get the silkie feathers. Doesn't seem worth it to me. I don't believe they'd be in demand enough to justify all that work.

 

[Indyshent]

I think you need a white chantacler in your project .they are a combination of the silver ,recessive white and dominant white genes which make them that beautiful white. you want a properly bred one from a good breeder, not a hatchery. you'll get that longer tail you like. you'll get the P comb but without the dewlap that you don't like. very cold resistant . clean legs. the striped chicks ...I think what you're seeing (without seeing a picture of them ) is some form of the "wild-type allele" (e+) in their base .
Best,
Karen in Pennsylvania

I'd have to have said very expensive chicks shipped in. I'm in college, have three kids to homeschool (and two are special needs), live on a shoestring budget, live in a crappy neighborhood where I can spit to my neighbors' houses on both sides, and regularly have to downsize because of said budget. Keeping birds is expensive--too much so to warrant keeping a ton of them or buying expensive chicks (I guarantee my husband won't allow me expensive stock).

All that to say that I'm either going to make this bird with what I've got, or I'm not going to make it at all. It's a school-related exercise for me, and while having fancier, better quality birds would be possible, it is prohibitively expensive... particularly when I'm just going to be making worthless mutts out of them, in all likelihood.

I think the wild type allele came from EE and Optimus Prime, due to his recently developed red bleed. Who knows what Leghorns and black OE were hiding. I've got to find a good way of banding some of these chicks. Everyone's got an opinion on banding--and said opinions are always conflicting. If anyone wants to weigh in, please do!

Exhibition Leghorns are some of the best quality fowl we have in the USA. They might not lay an egg a day like the commercial layers, but some lines get close. Chicks and hatching eggs also seem to be plentiful certain times of the year.

As for Rose comb and egg laying, don't forget about hamburgs, dominique, and anconas. Anconas are very close in type to leghorns if not identical.

Laying like crazy and longevity are mutually exclusive.

I did get Dominiques this past spring: five died as chicks inexplicably, and the other grew into a heavy bodied meanie of a pullet. Don't know of any breeders in this area; everyone who has them has hatchery birds, which appear crossed with a lot of Rock.

Ancona are pretty much Leghorns and I don't know anyone who breeds them. They're lovely, but I've always always end them with dingle combs--just like Minorcas.

I really wanted Hamburgs but never found any this year. I'd actually like to keep away from rose combs even though I really like the look of them because that mutation affects sperm motility. It's going to take me forever to weed out rose combs here though because so many of the birds here carry it in one form or another. A lot of the reasons for phenotypes are still poorly understood, so I fully expect to find out that some perfect combination of traits yields an inherently unhealthy bird in the future. Single combs (and wild type overall) are likely to be the healthiest birds; however, jungle fowl just aren't suited to Indiana or good production birds. Brown Leghorns would be the closest, but again, finding some of good quality isn't likely here, and they won't be a part of this project because I don't have any (even though I love them).

I don't mind fewer eggs a year in exchange for longer productive years. I'm never really going to beat the industrial birds, which are being professionally managed and are so far ahead of other breeds in terms of egg size and frequency. They're a Blade Runner "burns brightest, burns fastest" bird though, and that's something that I don't want.

Leghorns are definitely a great starting place, but as I've mentioned before, I'm not going to be able to get better quality or other birds for this project. Finer birds might make this project easier, but I'm never realistically going to lay hands on them. I'm aware of a handful of breeders for better quality examples of some of those breeds, and none of them are close or going to be doling out freebies for a project like this. The closest I've come to show quality stock of any breed was a bunch of Sumatra roosters a breeder couldn't care for anymore (OP's grandpa was one of these). The Breda hen might've been one, too (very similar situation, but a different breeder).

Breda actually used to be the #1 laying breed in the US, prior to the Civil War. That war was murder on poultry diversity, but it did allow the eventual takeover of the Leghorn here, if I understand the history correctly. Really miss my Breda hen. Very sweet, quiet bird, very healthy (all of the roosters I've seen were sickly though--as in every last one of them died through predation or respiratory infection. I'm guessing that was more a fault of breeding for conformation and color as opposed to vigor, and I'm not going to fault the heed as therefore being inherently unhealthy so much as inbred due to limited stock being shipped in from Europe), laid well.

As cool as leg feathers look, they don't appear to have practical advantages to outweigh their disadvantages, particularly in muddy areas and snow. The comblessness and giant nostrils, however, are enormous advantages, and if I can recover those alleles from these chicks, I'm sticking with them as the ideal. Combless chickens are surprisingly neat looking and certainly superior in the cold. The big nostrils aren't as likely to get plugged and cause issues either, in my experience.

A bird can lay numerous eggs a year and not burn out in two years though, and that's more what I mean by "lays like crazy". I don't want one year of 365 eggs as opposed to three years of 250 eggs. For me at least, the longer productive lifespan outweighs the benefit of getting the eggs all in one year. Churning out that many eggs in a year is certain to take a toll on a bird's overall health and lifespan. Equally so, I don't want birds that are going to lay 16 eggs a year for five years because it's just not practical to feed a bird who can't feed you back.

Ya I'd skip the whole idea of the silkie feathers.
To bring them in even as just a variety you'd also be bringing in the black skin, extra toe, feathered legs, broodiness, small and poor egg laying. A lot of things you'd have to breed back out just to get the silkie feathers. Doesn't seem worth it to me. I don't believe they'd be in demand enough to justify all that work.

If it ever happened, it would be eons down the road and most likely the start of a separate, more confinement and suburban friendly breed. I'm not sure what in poultry keeping justifies anything about poultry keeping. I'm in this mostly to learn about genetics and figured hammering this rough into a diamond would help me understand the genetics of it--and in turn help me understand everything that goes more generally into animal husbandry and making a breed, of course.

I've got silkies around only to study the genotype of Lion-O, who displays a neat lemon coloring. He's basically a Lakenvelder, only instead of black, he has blonde in his hackles and tail. Want to find out what's restricting gold from his body--except stippled on his back. I would eventually like to see this color in something other than a silkie because it's pretty. I also need to see if his red comb and wattles are solely due to other dilution factors (I think they are) or if he doesn't actually express the usual dark silkie skin because he doesn't carry it. Test crosses are the only way to be sure though, so I'm going to have to cross him over a normally pigmented black hen who doesn't carry dilution factors, as well as over a recessive white silkie and maybe even a buff hen.

I don't think dark skin, blue earlobes, polydactyly are necessarily anathema to production or other attributes I want in a fowl. The silkie feathers are the least suited thing about these birds to cold hardiness, but they're also what people love about them the most (that and charming personality). They're pretty much the opposite of the industrial Leghorn, but that doesn't mean they can complement each other's weaknesses possibly. I've known people who got rid of Leghorns because they were flighty, sometimes aggressive, were always spooking and flying off, never raised babies, etc. Silkies aren't outdoorsy production fowl, and that's most of what people don't like about them, but they don't have the wanderlust or capacity to skip over fences that ticks off neighbors and gets wandering birds run over or caught by dogs.

Flightiness and broodiness are both double edged swords for a breed. Too much broody means not enough eggs, too little broody and the owner needs an incubator, too little flighty means less survivability generally, but too much flighty causes problems too (some of the same problems even as too little flighty, after all a bird that bolts can break its neck on a ceiling and in doing so be just as dead compared to the bird that didn't fly away from the predator). Going to be fine tuning temperament as I go, regardless. I prefer birds that don't go broody or rarely do it, and prefer the active bird to the lay-about.

The silkied feathers have also appeared in other breeds like Cochins, Ameraucana, and the Swedish Flower landrace. If a Swedish Flower can make it with silkied feathers as a landrace, it might not be as much the feathers that's keeping Silkies indoors overwinter (might have more to do with other factors like overall small body size or temperament, for instance). The only way to properly find out is to actually make and test out other birds to see how well they handle the cold. I don't mind homebodies, but I do hate frostbite.

I'm planning to keep the silkies separate from the other birds for the foreseeable future though. It's a back burner possibility of some far distant future. I am curious to know more about silkied Swedish Flowers though and how well they handle the native area relative to their smooth feathered relatives.

In test crossing Lion-O over colors other than recessive white (and potentially years down the road), I might eventually get some odd balls which won't be part of the aforementioned project but may (after another cross) yield silkied feathers on something which isn't a silkie and might help answer the riddle of exactly what keeps silkies indoors. I think their cautious dispositions might have as much to do with it as the poor feather quality because the silkies I've had were/are all such shy creatures and have to be forced into trying new things. They're calm enough around people but seem to be scared of everything else.

Also, the silkies I've got are weird in other ways. As they're still need for meat in some places, some silkies are good sized birds. So far, two pullets and Lion-O are smaller (still about the weight of Leghorn hens and the LF Polish rooster), but three of these recessive whites are huge relative not only to Lion-O, but to the other large fowl on the premises. The certifiable roo in that bunch (only 14 weeks old still) outweighs all of my other roosters already. He's a tall, brawny dude. Hopefully, this extra size will make them abnormally good in the cold this winter. I don't think any of them have walnut combs. Most have peas, but the gigantic boy has a single comb, and Lion-O has a giant double rose comb, so at least his crosses over peas will yield the prescribed walnut comb.