TRUE BREEDING RANGERS?

[KAGs waterfowl]

Hi all,
Like many, I’m looking to start a project to create a true breeding meat breed that resembles the Freedom Ranger/Red Ranger. I’ve seen in many threads that most Ranger/pasture meat bird breeding stock females are Dwarf, making the males carry dwarf which is not ideal. Obviously you could breed this out using specific pens and keeping track of what roosters carry the gene by generation, but I would like to start this project sooner and retain good size by not introducing New Hampshire, RIR, etc plus most good lines of those are booked out forever.

My main question, is are there any lines that don’t carry the dwarf gene?

To name a few I’ve found: Jackie Ranger, Freedom Ranger, Rudd Ranger, Murray’s Big Red, Kosher King.
Would like to know if anyone’s used any of these as a rooster line for a project and saw 50% or so dwarf.
Thanks

 

[NatJ]

I don't know which lines may contain dwarf.

Obviously you could breed this out using specific pens and keeping track of what roosters carry the gene by generation, but I would like to start this project sooner and retain good size by not introducing New Hampshire, RIR, etc plus most good lines of those are booked out forever.

You could breed out sex-linked dwarfism without needing to introduce anything else, in about 2 generations.

Any female who is normal sized, in any generation, cannot carry it.

So breed a male (who might carry it) to a normal-sized female, and see if any chicks are dwarf. If yes, you know he carries it. Choose some normal-sized sons and test-mate them until you find one that doesn't have it. Then breed from that male, and from as many normal-sized females as you like, and dwarfism should never show up again, unless you bring in new males that carry it.

If you need to bring in new genetics later, do it through the females, and you can avoid bringing dwarfism back in.

Would like to know if anyone’s used any of these as a rooster line for a project and saw 50% or so dwarf.

If you're breeding to normal-sized hens, you should get a fairly even 4-way split: dwarf females, normal females, normal sons, and normal-looking sons who carry dwarf. So only about 25% would be visibly dwarfs.

For testing a male, if you hatch about 7-8 daughters without any of them being dwarfs, there is a very good chance that he does not carry it.

 

[KAGs waterfowl]

Thanks for the info!

 

[Tammy N]

SO there is a sex link gene and a dwarfism gene in the rangers ? But can they be bred true from Lg hens and roosters from the same linage or would i have to order from another line and work it out . ?

 

[NatJ]

SO there is a sex link gene and a dwarfism gene in the rangers?

The question was about just one gene: it is a dwarfism gene that is sexlinked. Chickens can have several other sexlinked genes too, but the dwarfism one is what this thread is talking about.

Most genes are inherited equally from both parents, but the sexlinked genes are not.

Male chickens have sex chromosomes ZZ. Female chickens have sex chromosomes ZW. The sexlinked genes are on the Z chromsome.

So a rooster inherits one Z chromsome from each parent, and gives one to each chick.
A hen inherits a Z chromosome from her father, and a W from her mother (which is what makes her female.) The hen gives her Z chromosome to her sons, and her W chromosome to her daughters (that determines their gender.)

The Z chromosome, with all the genes it has, can pass from father to son, father to daughter, mother to son. It cannot go from mother to daughter, because the W chromosome does that.

(Yes, chicken sex chromosomes are backwards of the XY system that most mammals use.)

But can they be bred true from Lg hens and roosters from the same linage or would i have to order from another line and work it out . ?

If the rangers are a hybrid, they will not breed true. That means if you do breed them, the chicks will have some variation-- some may be different colors, or larger or smaller, or grow faster or slower, or have some other kind of differences. That's just the way hybrids work.

But if you start breeding from the hybrids, and then carefully select which chicks to keep, you can eventually get chickens that do breed true for whichever traits you are selecting (it will probably take several generations, but is definitely possible.)

Starting with hens and roosters from a single line should be fine.

 

[Tammy N]

The question was about just one gene: it is a dwarfism gene that is sexlinked. Chickens can have several other sexlinked genes too, but the dwarfism one is what this thread is talking about.

Most genes are inherited equally from both parents, but the sexlinked genes are not.

Male chickens have sex chromosomes ZZ. Female chickens have sex chromosomes ZW. The sexlinked genes are on the Z chromsome.

So a rooster inherits one Z chromsome from each parent, and gives one to each chick.
A hen inherits a Z chromosome from her father, and a W from her mother (which is what makes her female.) The hen gives her Z chromosome to her sons, and her W chromosome to her daughters (that determines their gender.)

The Z chromosome, with all the genes it has, can pass from father to son, father to daughter, mother to son. It cannot go from mother to daughter, because the W chromosome does that.

(Yes, chicken sex chromosomes are backwards of the XY system that most mammals use.)


If the rangers are a hybrid, they will not breed true. That means if you do breed them, the chicks will have some variation-- some may be different colors, or larger or smaller, or grow faster or slower, or have some other kind of differences. That's just the way hybrids work.

But if you start breeding from the hybrids, and then carefully select which chicks to keep, you can eventually get chickens that do breed true for whichever traits you are selecting (it will probably take several generations, but is definitely possible.)

Starting with hens and roosters from a single line should be fine.

Got it thanks . i bred my own line of pixie bob cats due to the fact they were so inbred and i needed a challenge . for the cat they have Poly feet and Naturally short tails . poly is Dominant but the short tail gene is not . also the break in the nose to turn their faces up not down like a regular cat. i did it in 5 generations and beat breeders that had been breeding for 25 yrs helping many get new lines and improving the breed health strength and immunity. I love genetics the cats are supposed to look like bobcats without the wild blood . i think i have accomplished my mission . so if anyone wants to work on this IM IN

 

[CSKA]

I don't know which lines may contain dwarf.



You could breed out sex-linked dwarfism without needing to introduce anything else, in about 2 generations.

Any female who is normal sized, in any generation, cannot carry it.

So breed a male (who might carry it) to a normal-sized female, and see if any chicks are dwarf. If yes, you know he carries it. Choose some normal-sized sons and test-mate them until you find one that doesn't have it. Then breed from that male, and from as many normal-sized females as you like, and dwarfism should never show up again, unless you bring in new males that carry it.

If you need to bring in new genetics later, do it through the females, and you can avoid bringing dwarfism back in.


If you're breeding to normal-sized hens, you should get a fairly even 4-way split: dwarf females, normal females, normal sons, and normal-looking sons who carry dwarf. So only about 25% would be visibly dwarfs.

For testing a male, if you hatch about 7-8 daughters without any of them being dwarfs, there is a very good chance that he does not carry it.

This is really useful information. So if I tried to weed out the dwarf gene by trial and error, and cross a Freedom Ranger (third generation which has been cleaned from the Dwarf Gene) type with lets say a heritage New Hampshire or heritage Cornish... how much of its speed of growth would stay in the final cross?

So:

Grand Parents: Bought hybrid male x Heritage female. (if no dwarfs of any sex, continue to step 2)
Parents: Non Dwarf Male (fastest grower from before) x Heritage female.
Grandchildren: Non Dwarf Male from Parents (fastest grower) x Heritage Female.

This means only 1/4th remain from the Original, and next only 1/8. Would this still be a fast growing breed? Or would be the same performance as an heritage? I mean is it worth the trouble?

 

[NatJ]

This is really useful information. So if I tried to weed out the dwarf gene by trial and error, and cross a Freedom Ranger (third generation which has been cleaned from the Dwarf Gene) type with lets say a heritage New Hampshire or heritage Cornish... how much of its speed of growth would stay in the final cross?

So:

Grand Parents: Bought hybrid male x Heritage female. (if no dwarfs of any sex, continue to step 2)
Parents: Non Dwarf Male (fastest grower from before) x Heritage female.
Grandchildren: Non Dwarf Male from Parents (fastest grower) x Heritage Female.

This means only 1/4th remain from the Original, and next only 1/8. Would this still be a fast growing breed? Or would be the same performance as an heritage? I mean is it worth the trouble?

Unfortunately, I don't know if it would grow fast enough to be worth the bother, or not.

You can weed out the dwarf gene much faster by swapping the genders around: heritage male (no dwarf gene) to hybrid female (no dwarf gene.) That would give you chicks that are 50% heritage and 50% hybrid, with no dwarf genes involved.

 

[CSKA]

Unfortunately, I don't know if it would grow fast enough to be worth the bother, or not.

You can weed out the dwarf gene much faster by swapping the genders around: heritage male (no dwarf gene) to hybrid female (no dwarf gene.) That would give you chicks that are 50% heritage and 50% hybrid, with no dwarf genes involved.

That sounds much better!