Water Belly // Ascites :: Hypodermic Needle Won't Drain Fluids

[exactlyzac]

Hello all my lovely chicken folks!

I have a bit of an advanced question for y'all regarding water belly. I'm completely bewildered by this one so maybe one of you smarties could help?!

IN A NUTSHELL:

The patient is a 2 year old silver laced Wyandotte named Celosia (after the flower). She has had fluid accumulating in her abdomen for about 18 months now and I've drained her successfully with 18g x 1" hypodermic needles 5 times. I've never had a problem getting the fluid to flow out freely, but this last time, when I stuck the needle in, the plunger wouldn't draw back. I stuck her 4 different times, in slightly different locations (to the right and down from the vent) but each time I just got a vacuum and was unable to draw any fluids or even pull the plunger back.

Nevertheless, I'd still get a drip or 2 of clear liquid after withdrawing the needle, so I know it's in there. Maybe I'm just going in too deep, but she's got a big ol squishy belly, so that seems like missing the broad side of a barn to me.

Anyway, I've ordered 1/2" and 3/4" needles based on this hypothesis, but definitely curious if any of you have seen this before?



EXTRA DETAILS:

The fluid always comes out almost perfectly clear with only a faint musty odor. No yellowish hue.

I'm confident in the diagnosis based on her history and the fact that she's showing the same classic symptoms again:
*swollen & distended abdomen that is soft, squishy and feels full of liquid
*waddling when walking
*labored breathing, even at rest
*lethargy & lack of appetite
* hanging out on her own more and more



PAST RESULTS:

She's shown signs of improvement after each draining:
Her first drain released 1.2 L w 6 weeks before the next drain was needed
Her most recent drain released about 0.3L and it took 6 months to accumulate enough to need another



Ooookay, that's all I can think to include here. I'd be very grateful for any input from y'all. @azygous I know you really know your stuff... any thoughts here?

Thanks and stay safe and don't forget to share some eggs w your neighbors y'all!

- Zac

 

[Eggcessive]

@casportpony has done a lot of draining of hens abdomens. What color is the fluid that you have drained before? It should be yellow to dark amber in color. If it is clear and colorless, that can be from a cystic right oviduct, not ascites fluid.

I have only drained one small bantam hen of mine with ascites. Usually I let nature take it’s course, but this time, then hen was in severe respiratory distress and lethargic. She did improve with draining, but 4 days later, I drained her and the fluid was very thick and cloudy, and hard to get out. The next week, I could not get any out, and she died a day or two later.

Egg yolk peritonitis is one of several possible causes of ascites, and it could be the material in her belly is thick or too viscous to drain with a needle. 18 gauge needles are the largest bore needles that I can find in my feed stores. A 16 gauge mught be better, and some people have reported using a small knife or large needle. Be aware that infection or death can occur with draining a hen without a vet.

 

[exactlyzac]

@casportpony has done a lot of draining of hens abdomens. What color is the fluid that you have drained before? It should be yellow to dark amber in color. If it is clear and colorless, that can be from a cystic right oviduct, not ascites fluid.

I have only drained one small bantam hen of mine with ascites. Usually I let nature take it’s course, but this time, then hen was in severe respiratory distress and lethargic. She did improve with draining, but 4 days later, I drained her and the fluid was very thick and cloudy, and hard to get out. The next week, I could not get any out, and she died a day or two later.

Egg yolk peritonitis is one of several possible causes of ascites, and it could be the material in her belly is thick or too viscous to drain with a needle. 18 gauge needles are the largest bore needles that I can find in my feed stores. A 16 gauge mught be better, and some people have reported using a small knife or large needle. Be aware that infection or death can occur with draining a hen without a vet.

Thanks for the quick and thorough reply @Eggcessive

The really confusing thing is how I'm unable to draw any fluid now after having done this 5 times before. Do you or @casportpony think I'm missing the mark with my needle ooorr... I dunno.

But yes, the fluid is almost perfectly clear and nearly odorless sooo maybe ascites is a misdiagnosis?

I was able to get 16g in 3/4" so that's good

And yes, I understand that amateur operations like this put the hen at risk, but Celosia was on her deathbed 18 months ago and we've made it this far under my inexpert hand. I wish I could afford to take her to a vet every time, but I can't so I'm just gonna do my best to keep her healthy and happy, and accept the end when it comes, ya know?

I am very careful to sterilize the skin where I'm sticking her and use a fresh needle every time to help prevent infection though.

Thanks again!

- Z

 

[casportpony]

Where on her belly are you inserting the needle?

 

[Eggcessive]

Here is some reading about persistent or cystic right oviduct in chickens:
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...uctive-system/cystic-right-oviduct-in-poultry

https://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/diseases-of-poultry/221/malformations

 

[exactlyzac]

Where on her belly are you inserting the needle?

I'm going in to the right of the cloaca and down low toward the bottom of her belly, as shown in this video (except I give er a good butt bath first)

Here's a photo where you can see one of my entry holes. It only bled a drop

 

[exactlyzac]

Here is some reading about persistent or cystic right oviduct in chickens:
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...uctive-system/cystic-right-oviduct-in-poultry

https://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/diseases-of-poultry/221/malformations

Ooh I hadn't seen this one. I found another article (cited below) that says, "Grossly, features were distended abdomen that contained fluid filled cyst which varies from 2.5 cm to 10 cm in diameter. The wall of the cyst was very thin and it contained slightly opaque watery fluid that ranged from 20 to 430 ml."

So this looks like the right color of fluid, but given the small size I almost certainly would have missed it the first 5 operations, and since the first one yielded 1.2 L, it's probably too much fluid for cystic right oviduct... I wish I could give her an MRI or an ultrasound or something lollll

http://www.tanuvas.ac.in/tnjvas/tnjvas/vol7(5)/218_220.pdf

 

[Jeanw]

I hope your hen improves!

 

[RoosterWhisperer]

Hello all my lovely chicken folks!

I have a bit of an advanced question for y'all regarding water belly. I'm completely bewildered by this one so maybe one of you smarties could help?!

IN A NUTSHELL:

The patient is a 2 year old silver laced Wyandotte named Celosia (after the flower). She has had fluid accumulating in her abdomen for about 18 months now and I've drained her successfully with 18g x 1" hypodermic needles 5 times. I've never had a problem getting the fluid to flow out freely, but this last time, when I stuck the needle in, the plunger wouldn't draw back. I stuck her 4 different times, in slightly different locations (to the right and down from the vent) but each time I just got a vacuum and was unable to draw any fluids or even pull the plunger back.

Nevertheless, I'd still get a drip or 2 of clear liquid after withdrawing the needle, so I know it's in there. Maybe I'm just going in too deep, but she's got a big ol squishy belly, so that seems like missing the broad side of a barn to me.

Anyway, I've ordered 1/2" and 3/4" needles based on this hypothesis, but definitely curious if any of you have seen this before?



EXTRA DETAILS:

The fluid always comes out almost perfectly clear with only a faint musty odor. No yellowish hue.

I'm confident in the diagnosis based on her history and the fact that she's showing the same classic symptoms again:
*swollen & distended abdomen that is soft, squishy and feels full of liquid
*waddling when walking
*labored breathing, even at rest
*lethargy & lack of appetite
* hanging out on her own more and more



PAST RESULTS:

She's shown signs of improvement after each draining:
Her first drain released 1.2 L w 6 weeks before the next drain was needed
Her most recent drain released about 0.3L and it took 6 months to accumulate enough to need another



Ooookay, that's all I can think to include here. I'd be very grateful for any input from y'all. @azygous I know you really know your stuff... any thoughts here?

Thanks and stay safe and don't forget to share some eggs w your neighbors y'all!

- Zac

I've had this before, there isn't much you can do to reverse it. But, you can make things a little easier, for the hen or roo. If there are bits of white stuff in the fluid you drained, an egg most likely broke inside her abdomen. The fluid will also be yellow if it's an egg breakage issue. Though, mind they don't live very long afterward, things just get a little bit easier so they can live out the rest of their lives. I've had them drained, it stinks though.

 

[Lavernandshirley]

Hello all my lovely chicken folks!

I have a bit of an advanced question for y'all regarding water belly. I'm completely bewildered by this one so maybe one of you smarties could help?!

IN A NUTSHELL:

The patient is a 2 year old silver laced Wyandotte named Celosia (after the flower). She has had fluid accumulating in her abdomen for about 18 months now and I've drained her successfully with 18g x 1" hypodermic needles 5 times. I've never had a problem getting the fluid to flow out freely, but this last time, when I stuck the needle in, the plunger wouldn't draw back. I stuck her 4 different times, in slightly different locations (to the right and down from the vent) but each time I just got a vacuum and was unable to draw any fluids or even pull the plunger back.

Nevertheless, I'd still get a drip or 2 of clear liquid after withdrawing the needle, so I know it's in there. Maybe I'm just going in too deep, but she's got a big ol squishy belly, so that seems like missing the broad side of a barn to me.

Anyway, I've ordered 1/2" and 3/4" needles based on this hypothesis, but definitely curious if any of you have seen this before?



EXTRA DETAILS:

The fluid always comes out almost perfectly clear with only a faint musty odor. No yellowish hue.

I'm confident in the diagnosis based on her history and the fact that she's showing the same classic symptoms again:
*swollen & distended abdomen that is soft, squishy and feels full of liquid
*waddling when walking
*labored breathing, even at rest
*lethargy & lack of appetite
* hanging out on her own more and more



PAST RESULTS:

She's shown signs of improvement after each draining:
Her first drain released 1.2 L w 6 weeks before the next drain was needed
Her most recent drain released about 0.3L and it took 6 months to accumulate enough to need another



Ooookay, that's all I can think to include here. I'd be very grateful for any input from y'all. @azygous I know you really know your stuff... any thoughts here?

Thanks and stay safe and don't forget to share some eggs w your neighbors y'all!

- Zac

I'm having the same issues drawing out the fluid, did you find a resolution to this or just keep sticking the chicken until successful?