Théo and the chickens des Sauches

[ManueB]

I suspect my answer is going to get me in hot water, but since you asked......
First remember there are different kinds of wounds. A surgical incision into healthy tissue is different from a puncture from a tooth or a talon for example.
Some wounds are best closed up and some are best left to heal from the bottom. Generally a non-surgical wound can be assumed to be infected and so shouldn't be closed up because that will trap the infection.

In a surgical situation you are trying to prevent bacteria from entering the wound from the surface of the skin. In that situation chlorhexidine has been shown more effective than betadine (I can hunt down a reference for that if needed). And I have never heard any rule about avoiding to use both - and I have never heard of anyone using both!

For anything other than clean surgical wounds the emphasis on wound care has evolved over the last 30 years to focus on encouraging healthy granulation tissue (healing from below) rather than on antiseptic use.
There is at least one study that shows use of ANY antiseptic worse than plain boiled water or sterile normal saline. The study showed faster healing without the use of an antiseptic.
Just like hydrogen peroxide damages the tissues needed to heal, so do the antiseptics.
I think the gold standard for non-surgical wounds is irrigation with boiled water or sterile normal saline followed by coverage with a moist dressing - like a hydrocolloid dressing that encourages the formation of granulation tissue and new skin formation.

Sorry for the long post!

RC, I'm very glad and also very grateful you took the time to write this, thank you so much ! It's really interesting, and also challenging to my current practices. I am very drawn to that idea that skin can heal itself- it seems so perfect. As usual I wish I hadn't stopped biology and physics in 8th grade so I could understand the why's and how.

And I do know that health protocols at least in France, can be outdated. I think that my mum, who recently had a pretty ugly wound that required a nurse coming over to tend it for a while, was treated using humid environment with a hydrocolloid dressing and hyaluronic acid to help skin formation. I am quite sure that has not become the usual way of doing, though.

And I will be honest, while I would be fairly confident skipping the antiseptic for myself, I wouldn't really be for the hens, for two reasons. The first is that the level of bacterias and microbes in their environment is much harder to control than for a human being who you can tell to avoid rolling in poop. I have seen with the bumblefeet that the colloid dressing did a really good job of keeping the wound clean. But it was in a place where the hens couldn't peck it off, which I have also seen Piou-piou do very easily when it couldn't be held in place by something else. And on an open wound, I would especially be afraid of flies - at this time of year we have thousands here. The other reason is that many of my chickens aren't as sweet as Lilly and it would be very hard to catch them during the day to check the wound and that they didn't take off the dressing. So I feel, maybe wrongly, that antiseptic offers some kind of safety from it getting infected during their day and I would not be able to see it.
I'm pretty excited to learn more about this though, and especially to find out if and how it is being used for animals that live outside.
Thank you again. I hope at some point, you will consider writing articles on some of those things where your explanations bring information that is very hard to find on BYC.
***************

Happy first hatch day, Mélisse, Annette, Lulu and Laure ! We may not have become as attached to you as we have with the first generation of chickens that hatched here but we are slowly getting to know you better and even to create a bond with Mélisse. Here is to a first healthy and happy year ! Birthday was celebrated by opening three cans of sardines in whole grain rice ; the party almost turned into a riot !

Also to counterbalance all the serious and sad talk on my recent posts, I want to share some goofy real life stuff. It took us a lot of times to decide on the pullets names, but about two months ago my partner found three of them stupid nicknames, and those have stuck.

Mélisse was named after the lemon balm that grows as a weed here. Her new nickname is Saucisse - sausage.

Annette was named after the wife of the neighbour who gave us the eggs.
She is now called either Cacahuète (peanut) or Cannette (can).

Lulu was named after both Annette's sister and RC's regretted crazy roadrunner. She is now named Cul-cul : bum-bum .

Only Laure has kept her real name because she is so weird we don't want to spook her !

I also think of Blanchon and Pied-beau today, their hatch brothers. Pied-beau and his hens have had three fox attacks in the last two weeks and apparently Pied-beau did really good, always putting himself between the fox and the hens so that the hens could move back to the shelter where they can perch on a roost so high they are safe. I worry of course, but Gaston's son is as smitten with Pied-beau as we were, and he is trying very hard to deter the fox.

Today I went for the first time in two years on a run to our local summit. I'm realising how important running is for my emotional stability so even if I will never catch up to the level I was or compete again, I'm trying to kick my butt to run enough to feel better and going back there felt like a milestone !

A beautiful warm day- finally in the usual temperature range.

 

[Perris]

happy birthday chickens!

 

[RoyalChick]

And I will be honest, while I would be fairly confident skipping the antiseptic for myself, I wouldn't really be for the hens, for two reasons. The first is that the level of bacterias and microbes in their environment is much harder to control than for a human being who you can tell to avoid rolling in poop. I have seen with the bumblefeet that the colloid dressing did a really good job of keeping the wound clean. But it was in a place where the hens couldn't peck it off, which I have also seen Piou-piou do very easily when it couldn't be held in place by something else. And on an open wound, I would especially be afraid of flies - at this time of year we have thousands here. The other reason is that many of my chickens aren't as sweet as Lilly and it would be very hard to catch them during the day to check the wound and that they didn't take off the dressing. So I feel, maybe wrongly, that antiseptic offers some kind of safety from it getting infected during their day and I would not be able to see it.
I'm pretty excited to learn more about this though, and especially to find out if and how it is being used for animals that live outside.
Thank you again. I hope at some point, you will consider writing articles on some of those things where your explanations bring information that is very hard to find on BYC.

I totally understand the concern. However, the issue of walking through poop is really not solved by antiseptics, it is solved by covering the wound. And that is tricky as chickens will peck away any wound covering.
Arguably it would be better to wash the wound frequently rather than spray it with antiseptics, but that is often not practical, and also doesn't work because the chickens will likely peck away at the wound itself.
There are 'artificial skin' sprays that create a film over the wound to protect it from outside infection. I haven't researched those, but they are now common enough I might just buy some and try it out on myself. If that were to work, I think you would wash the wound, apply the hydrocolloid dressing and then seal it up with artificial skin. But Lord knows how that behaves with feathers and how to get it off etc.
Next time I need to go to a vet I will ask what the latest is on animal wound care.

 

[MaryJanet]

Today I went for the first time in two years on a run to our local summit. I'm realising how important running is for my emotional stability so even if I will never catch up to the level I was or compete again, I'm trying to kick my butt to run enough to feel better and going back there felt like a milestone !

Such wonderful scenery have I remembered correctly that you stopped running because of an injury of some kind?

I always feel happier with exercise in my day. Even if it's just a walk or gentle bike ride.

 

[ManueB]

I totally understand the concern. However, the issue of walking through poop is really not solved by antiseptics, it is solved by covering the wound. And that is tricky as chickens will peck away any wound covering.
Arguably it would be better to wash the wound frequently rather than spray it with antiseptics, but that is often not practical, and also doesn't work because the chickens will likely peck away at the wound itself.
There are 'artificial skin' sprays that create a film over the wound to protect it from outside infection. I haven't researched those, but they are now common enough I might just buy some and try it out on myself. If that were to work, I think you would wash the wound, apply the hydrocolloid dressing and then seal it up with artificial skin. But Lord knows how that behaves with feathers and how to get it off etc.
Next time I need to go to a vet I will ask what the latest is on animal wound care.

One lesson I learnt the hard way from Piou-piou is to trim away all the feathers close to the wound . And that you likely need to do it again as feathers can grow back.
Yes, I'd be interested to know what your vet says. Looking it up on the internet in french, it seems that dealing with wounds in a humid environment for animals is still rare. I came up with Swiss brands products and they were explicitly marketed for mammals.

Such wonderful scenery have I remembered correctly that you stopped running because of an injury of some kind?

I always feel happier with exercise in my day. Even if it's just a walk or gentle bike ride.

Yes, daily exercise is very important, I think. All the more so when you live in a city.
I started running less often initially when my race plans were cancelled because of COVID. Then, I figured being outside and gardening all the time, I didn't need so much to do physical activity. And I got a bit depressed at some point and started not wanting to run anymore, then I had a corn on one foot which I didn't realise was very easy to solve because it took ages to get an appointment to the podiatrist...so it was a sort of vicious circle. I didn't run because I felt depressed and I felt depressed because I didn't run . Since I'm a bit slow, it took me a long time to figure out that I need to exercise and not just be outside weeding or watching the chickens !

Today we finally got our usual weather back : scorching sun and strong winds in the afternoon. I am sure both I and the chickens will get sick of it much quicker than the rain. Piou-piou was again better during the day, though she went to bed at four, and now that Merle is done with sitting, the trio of small chickens is back together hanging out in the garden : Piou-piou, Merle, and Théo.

Léa is showing signs that she may stop sitting too ; however Chipie is finally really broody after laying more eggs than she has ever done since she arrived here. I'm worried that she will eat enough because she is very light, and she had those seizures before I started giving her a supplement while I clean the coop. Hopefully she will keep on eating that. Every morning she screams despondently until I lock her with me in the coop and she can have her tiny portion of scrambled egg and chopped almond .

Nougat, who was doing good up to now although she has lost her voice for weeks, acted weird tonight. It seems she was seeing something in the coop which terrified her but I couldn't see what and none of the other chickens were the least worried. She almost couldn't get up on the ramp and walk on the roost, loosing her balance, like last year when she was molting. And she is acting afraid of Gaston again.
I think it may become lonely for her if she turns unwell to not have any of her ex-batts friends with her.

Piou-piou showing up her bare irritated skin to thevsun.

Nougat during the day

This morning Mélisse and Annette spotted that the few cherries that escaped the frost are starting to turn red...I don't think we will get to eat any as they were quick to understand how to pick them first!

 

[MaryJanet]

She almost couldn't get up on the ramp and walk on the roost, loosing her balance,

That's odd. Do you think her eyesight is ok?

 

[ManueB]

That's odd. Do you think her eyesight is ok?

Her eye sight is ok. I think she has either some form of articular pain, or the imbalance is neurological. She really crouches on the roost and on the ramp as if she couldn't stay up. But during the day she seems to walk and run normally, and she looks like she is doing good. She doesn't really jump anymore on roosts or perches, though.

By now, it does seem she is developing some respiratory issue because I can hear a wheezing when she eats on top of her having lost her voice. Last spring, some of my chickens had a kind of respiratory disease - Gaston, Cannelle, and Théo a bit, that just disappeared after a while. I gave them herbal teas and some essential oils I use for myself when I have a cold. Now this spring, they are all coughing, but apart from Nougat, none seem the worse for it. So it could be a light form of either mycoplasma, or CRD, in the flock, who knows.
Nougat is still laying, around 5 days a week, and her eggs shells are much better than last year. Her eggs are a bit smaller than they used to be which makes them extra large instead of jumbo. It goes slightly against the usual idea that laying so much is what kills them, she was the best layer of the six and the last one alive.
For her, I'm afraid of the coming heat in summer. She never did well with the heat like most of my heavier chickens.

And you know how I always worry about insignificant details ? (And tend to miss the ones that are actually important...) Well one thing that worries me, or at least that I find odd, is how early my chickens go to bed. Piou-piou and Kara are usually the first toward 4.30, Lulu is the last at 6. But night only falls at 9 ! The coop is quite dark, so around 8, it gets harder to see well, but that still leaves a huge margin. And in the morning when I open the coop at 5.30, about ten minutes after daylight, they are all at the door screaming to be let out, the darkness doesn't stop them from getting down the roost. I wonder why they go to bed and get up so early. Do they get tired at the end of the day, or bored ?


Taking Chipie out of the nest and on the roost at night doesn't have any effect. She still believes she is sitting on eggs and stays entranced.

In the afternoon I lock the coop so she is forced to be outside and she knows. She pecks my shoes and screams at me as soon as she sees me which is totally unlike her.

Léa hasn't given up. She just had one afternoon off and now she's back being broody.

This shows how sore and naked Piou-piou's skin is. The clay worked quite well, but I didn't dare apply some again too soon as I'm afraid it will be too drying and itchy. She keeps pecking at both her feathers and her skin. I'm actually wondering about using those anti pecking ring, but it seems really hardcore

Nougat is afraid of Gaston when he tries to mate her but not to the point that she won't hang out with him during the day

Nougat.

Théo did a weird stretch while dust bathing, a bit like a human baby.

 

[Perris]

I wonder why they go to bed and get up so early. Do they get tired at the end of the day

I've noticed it with the older hens; I think they're tired at the end of a long day. Like me

 

[Molpet]

I've noticed it with the older hens; I think they're tired at the end of a long day. Like me

Yes my older hens go in early and the oldest get out later.
The hens from last year and the year before are out until 20 minutes after sunset.

 

[MaryJanet]

Hmm my oldest hen is nearly 7 and she goes to bed last of all but everything is upside down in the Northern hemisphere, sooo...