Don't believe the small Solar panel charging lies!

[gtaus]

For us, it's more about having the ability when the grid goes down.

I just watched an interesting YouTube video on some guy who was proposing a "down grid" backup system as opposed to a total "off grid" solar setup. He had already purchased a massive total house solar off grid system that cost him over $90,000.00. But he was now advising people to consider "down grid" solutions as more cost effective.

For example, he stated you could buy battery backup systems, charged by the grid, that would allow you to run your house for a day or more if the grid power went out. After that initial day or two, then he suggested you run a diesel/gas generator to recharge the backup batteries if you still did not have grid power. He stated that it would cost about $15.00 per week to keep the battery banks charged to run the house essentials. The battery banks plus the generator were less than $5,000.00. He had come to the conclusion that for most people, "down grid" backup power made more sense than buying into a total "off grid" expensive solution.

He stated that he had an 80 year old neighbor that requested a quote for a total off grid solar system that came in at about $60,000.00 with a 25 year break even point. Neighbor took his recommendation and went with a battery backup solution with generator instead. Payback, a couple of years....

Where I live, I have normal grid power at about 12 cents per kWh, and our Off-Peak rate which you use for heating the house, the hot water heater, the dryer, and slab heat costs us 6.7 cents per kWh. It's cheaper for me to heat the house with Off-Peak electricity than burning propane. Almost half the cost some years.

Also, we have never had power out longer than a few hours in the 30 years I have lived here. So, I have never really considered any off grid setups. But I do think it would be nice to have a battery backup solution, kept charged by Off-Peak power, ready to turn on in case of an emergency. I think that might be a solution for many people living in those hurricane zones.

 

[gtaus]

We are entirely solar powered. It's a small cabin we've been building for a couple years while living in it. We hard-wired it in, so anything we plug into an outlet is connected to our Goal Zero Yeti 3000. The Yeti is charged by eight 100w 12v panels on our roof. We have a TV, fridge (converted chest freezer), two ceiling fans, CPAP, etc.

As for our chickens, we don't have anything hooked up in the coop other than little solar string lights.

When I was growing up, we had a lake cabin that had no electricity. We used kerosene lamps and our refrigerator ran on propane. We had a small propane stove, but mainly grandma cooked on a wood burning stove in the main room. The wood burning stove provided us with hot water, heat for the cabin, and also cooked our food.

I suppose having any type of solar system would have been a step up for us, but we never complained. No TV back in the day, but we did have battery powered radios. Played chess and checkers, or cards, for an hour or so before going to bed each night. Good times.

When I got into high school, we got electricity out at the cabin. Made life easier in some ways, but not necessarily better. Of course, we had grid power back at our main homes, so staying at the cabin was like camping out under a roof.

 

[klb25]

When I was growing up, we had a lake cabin that had no electricity. We used kerosene lamps and our refrigerator ran on propane. We had a small propane stove, but mainly grandma cooked on a wood burning stove in the main room. The wood burning stove provided us with hot water, heat for the cabin, and also cooked our food.

I suppose having any type of solar system would have been a step up for us, but we never complained. No TV back in the day, but we did have battery powered radios. Played chess and checkers, or cards, for an hour or so before going to bed each night. Good times.

When I got into high school, we got electricity out at the cabin. Made life easier in some ways, but not necessarily better. Of course, we had grid power back at our main homes, so staying at the cabin was like camping out under a roof.

We do joke that we basically camp full-time. We have a wood cook stove for heat and cooking.

 

[gtaus]

We do joke that we basically camp full-time. We have a wood cook stove for heat and cooking.

I still have my grandparents wood cook stove sitting out in one of my garages. It was the kind with an oven, side compartment for warming water, and an upper warming chamber above the stove top.

I found a google picture of what my wood stove looks like, almost to the tee....

The one I have has some cracked enamel on it, but all the parts are still there. Would love to set it up somewhere, someday, but am told that insurance companies don't want a working wood stove in the house. Also, might not work so good in a house with smoke and soot covering the walls and ceiling. It did not matter in the cabin, but I don't think Dear Wife would be wanting to wash down the walls and ceilings from burning wood. And, as I remember, cleaning the ashes out of the bin usually resulted in some spilled ash on the floor. I can't imagine Dear Wife using an old wood cook stove when we have a nice electric oven that is easier to use. Oh, well.

But the thought of warming up the house in late fall and early spring with the wood cook stove instead of paying for electric heat is a nice idea. I have 3 acres of property and lots of wood for a small stove.

 

[klb25]

I still have my grandparents wood cook stove sitting out in one of my garages. It was the kind with an oven, side compartment for warming water, and an upper warming chamber above the stove top.

I found a google picture of what my wood stove looks like, almost to the tee....

The one I have has some cracked enamel on it, but all the parts are still there. Would love to set it up somewhere, someday, but am told that insurance companies don't want a working wood stove in the house. Also, might not work so good in a house with smoke and soot covering the walls and ceiling. It did not matter in the cabin, but I don't think Dear Wife would be wanting to wash down the walls and ceilings from burning wood. And, as I remember, cleaning the ashes out of the bin usually resulted in some spilled ash on the floor. I can't imagine Dear Wife using an old wood cook stove when we have a nice electric oven that is easier to use. Oh, well.

But the thought of warming up the house in late fall and early spring with the wood cook stove instead of paying for electric heat is a nice idea. I have 3 acres of property and lots of wood for a small stove.

That's a beauty!

Here is ours, with a bunch of water ready to go during the recent freeze:

 

[gtaus]

That's a beauty!

Here is ours, with a bunch of water ready to go during the recent freeze:

Very nice. It kind of breaks my heart that I have not been able to find a place to use the old wood stove that I grew up with out at our cabin when I was kid. But I kept it safe and sound in the garage hoping the day may come when it can be used again.

 

[hysales]

150 watts x 12 hours/day = 1.8kWh (at $0.14 cents) equals $0.25 per day maximum.

I agree with one of the other posts, that the investment is sensible for power outages. It also allows you to charge batteries away from an outlet.

Regarding charging from a vehicle, there is no "extra" electricity in your car. All charging is done by the alternator, which under load creates extra drag on the engine, in turn using more fuel.

It's also important to consider that during major storms when the power goes out, it'll likely be overcast. (Good time to also have wind power)

Pricewise it would be difficult to match your Electric company's efficiency! When you factor in that you have to STORE your electricity, maintain your gear like charge controller, batteries and inverter, it becomes very complicated and expensive. Other posters have mentioned $60-$100k off grid systems. Even if your electric bill is $200/month, it would take 25 years to break even on a $60k system. Thats assuming you never have to replace any batteries, panels, etc. (Some people have the option to sell extra electric back to the grid, that would change the math)

People also don't like to talk about what happens to all these batteries/panels and where/how the rare earth minerals get mined. How about trying to recycle them? And of course, the uncontrollable battery fires.

(article) https://energyskeptic.com/2021/battery-minerals-rare-declining/
Car videos but same concepts:
(EV fires)

(EV vs gasoline)

I will add that most of my arguments go out the window in the case of an extended emergency/power outage. If the whole town goes dark, who cares how much it cost you per watt, you just want the power!!

Regarding water heaters, it is important to consider that battery performance is dependent on its temperature. If you look at your car's battery it will be labelled with "CCA" or "Cold Cranking Amps" meaning how much power it can provide at low temperatures. So, if you are storing a battery outside in the freezing cold to power a heater, it will not last as long as the batteries stated capacity. (If possible, keep battery in a warmer location, and run the AC extension cable to the heaters)

I REALLY LIKE the idea of being off grid, and I lived that way for a year. But I think our current household system of big heavy toxic flammable batteries is a mistake. Electricity needs to be stored in a battery, but energy can be stored anywhere. For example, instead of batteries, what if the solar panels were connected to a water pump that lifted water into a tower. At the bottom of the tower is a hydroelectric generator. When you need power, you let the potential energy of the water release through gravity, travelling back into the pool it was pumped from. Basically, figure out any way to store energy other than in a nickel cadmium lithium arsenic lead cobalt manganese phosphate zinc titanium battery. (This is already how solar hot water heaters work; they store the energy as heat)

 

[gtaus]

150 watts x 12 hours/day = 1.8kWh (at $0.14 cents) equals $0.25 per day maximum.

So many good thoughts. Thank you. Found myself agreeing with just about everything. Have highlighted a few quotes to talk about.

First of all, I was only looking at a small solar panel to recharge my power tool batteries from "free" solar. But when I crunched the numbers and considered that, on average, I use less than one full battery per day, even that small investment of ~$150.00 would take me over 8 years to break even. Realistically, even much longer.

Last week I used my new 40v Powered Snow Shovel to clear my deck and sidewalks, plus a little more. I drained one 40v 4Ah battery all the way and another 40v 4Ah battery half way. I plugged my Kill-A-Watt meter into the charger and charged both batteries back to full. It cost me less than 3 cents total to recharge both batteries.

As a home DIY'er, I mainly use my 18v powered tools. When I recharged some of my 18v batteries, it came out to a fraction of a penny.

When I look at the grid power cost of charging up my batteries, it just made no sense for me to invest in a small solar panel setup to "save" money. It would not. Not now, not in my lifetime.

Regarding charging from a vehicle, there is no "extra" electricity in your car. All charging is done by the alternator, which under load creates extra drag on the engine, in turn using more fuel.

Yes, I suppose you are correct here, too. I have a 12v auto battery charger to charge my 18v tool batteries. I have plugged that in when driving to/from a worksite. Seems like a "free" charge on the battery, but, like you said, there would be some small amount of extra load on the alternator to charge the car battery. I can't imagine it would be very much.

Other posters have mentioned $60-$100k off grid systems. Even if your electric bill is $200/month, it would take 25 years to break even on a $60k system.

I did an estimate a few years ago for a total solar system for my house. At my age, I would have been in my 90's before I broke even. It was a non-starter for me.

I REALLY LIKE the idea of being off grid, and I lived that way for a year. But I think our current household system of big heavy toxic flammable batteries is a mistake. Electricity needs to be stored in a battery, but energy can be stored anywhere. For example, instead of batteries, what if the solar panels were connected to a water pump that lifted water into a tower. At the bottom of the tower is a hydroelectric generator. When you need power, you let the potential energy of the water release through gravity, travelling back into the pool it was pumped from. Basically, figure out any way to store energy other than in a nickel cadmium lithium arsenic lead cobalt manganese phosphate zinc titanium battery. (This is already how solar hot water heaters work; they store the energy as heat)

There are people who are storing energy in other means than electricity and batteries. I watched a YouTube video of some company storing heated water in large tanks. They had some way to convert the heated water to electricity as needed, but they basically made it sound like the hot water tanks were equivalent to XXX number of batteries for storage, with the advantage that no toxic materials were needed as in batteries.

I think the greatest energy savings has come from having more energy efficient devices and appliances. I'm sure my new refrigerator costs much less to run than our refrigerator of 40 years ago. Ditto with most devices such as our TVs, radios, and lights. It all adds up.

My hope is that we continue to find ways to improve our battery technology. 40 years ago, Ni-Cad batteries were the best I could get and they were low powered and only lasted a few years. Now, the Li-Ion batteries I get for my tools hold much more power and last many years longer. It's hard to compare our current battery technology to back in the old days, but I think, despite the cost of Li-Ion batteries, we are getting a much better deal these days. If we can continue to find less toxic materials for batteries while improving their performance, that will be great.

 

[hysales]

o many good thoughts. Thank you. Found myself agreeing with just about everything. Have highlighted a few quotes to talk about.

First of all, I was only looking at a small solar panel to recharge my power tool batteries from "free" solar. But when I crunched the numbers and considered that, on average, I use less than one full battery per day, even that small investment of ~$150.00 would take me over 8 years to break even. Realistically, even much longer.

Last week I used my new 40v Powered Snow Shovel to clear my deck and sidewalks, plus a little more. I drained one 40v 4Ah battery all the way and another 40v 4Ah battery half way. I plugged my Kill-A-Watt meter into the charger and charged both batteries back to full. It cost me less than 3 cents total to recharge both batteries.

As a home DIY'er, I mainly use my 18v powered tools. When I recharged some of my 18v batteries, it came out to a fraction of a penny.

When I look at the grid power cost of charging up my batteries, it just made no sense for me to invest in a small solar panel setup to "save" money. It would not. Not now, not in my lifetime.



Yes, I suppose you are correct here, too. I have a 12v auto battery charger to charge my 18v tool batteries. I have plugged that in when driving to/from a worksite. Seems like a "free" charge on the battery, but, like you said, there would be some small amount of extra load on the alternator to charge the car battery. I can't imagine it would be very much.



I did an estimate a few years ago for a total solar system for my house. At my age, I would have been in my 90's before I broke even. It was a non-starter for me.



There are people who are storing energy in other means than electricity and batteries. I watched a YouTube video of some company storing heated water in large tanks. They had some way to convert the heated water to electricity as needed, but they basically made it sound like the hot water tanks were equivalent to XXX number of batteries for storage, with the advantage that no toxic materials were needed as in batteries.

I think the greatest energy savings has come from having more energy efficient devices and appliances. I'm sure my new refrigerator costs much less to run than our refrigerator of 40 years ago. Ditto with most devices such as our TVs, radios, and lights. It all adds up.

My hope is that we continue to find ways to improve our battery technology. 40 years ago, Ni-Cad batteries were the best I could get and they were low powered and only lasted a few years. Now, the Li-Ion batteries I get for my tools hold much more power and last many years longer. It's hard to compare our current battery technology to back in the old days, but I think, despite the cost of Li-Ion batteries, we are getting a much better deal these days. If we can continue to find less toxic materials for batteries while improving their performance, that will be great.

Totally agree. Hopefully there's a new battery or energy storage technology coming soon. I'm hoping to one day have a mobile off grid setup. Currently all I have is a portable little 30 watt solar panel, but it's enough to charge a phone if I needed.

I work on a tiny island, Lana'i, in Hawaii. They have fairly frequent power outages. Also, it has the affordable rate of $0.42 per kWh! A Fire Captain there has a total house solar system with a Tesla battery, and he's not connected to the grid. He just purchased the new Ford F150 EV truck and is able to charge it from his solar. It also acts as extra battery storage that can be used to feed the house if needed. He actually calculated that the equivalent house battery would've been more expensive than just buying a truck! Downside is that he it takes days to fully charge from empty. But the island is 25 miles end to end and the trucks got 350+ mile range.
Just had to share that because in his case/location/cost I think it's worth it to have the bad-butt solar system. The gas pumps don't work when the powers out. Not a problem for him! But, it was weird when he told me to put my bag under the hood!

 

[cavemanrich]

Yes, I suppose you are correct here, too. I have a 12v auto battery charger to charge my 18v tool batteries. I have plugged that in when driving to/from a worksite. Seems like a "free" charge on the battery, but, like you said, there would be some small amount of extra load on the alternator to charge the car battery. I can't imagine it would be very much.

Less than a fart in a hurricane.