Narragansett Turkey sexual maturity

[SharkmanDan]

I read in a book, that Narragansett toms, are unable to successfully mate,mbefore they reach 1 year of age. Another local breeder said, that's not necessarily true, that if they perform and complete the act of copulation, then they are capable of reproducing.
Last Memorial Day, we got several Narragansett turkeys, and through normal attrition, are down to 3. 1 tom and 2 hens. We had 3 toms and 2 hens, but we're getting too much serious fighting, once the hens started laying, and making it clear they were ready to mate. We figured out which tom was favored by the hens, and sold the other two. In the mean time, we would see all three, at first, then just the two, and now that we only have one, copulate with the hens. So, it was generally assumed that the eggs were fertile. I sent several to a local incubator, then several more, to another. The first called last night, and asked that I come over, as none of my eggs had developed. Sure enough, nothing. The second incubator, is supposed to candle, in the next couple of days, but, it's hard to imagine, that all three toms would be completely infertile, unless they simply weren't sexually mature enough, to complete the act of fertilization.
What do you folks say? I'm very disappointed. I don't know if I want to send Lefty to freezer camo, and start over with Bourbon Reds, or what. All three toms were beautiful boys. The hens are laying beautiful eggs, though they slowed down this week. I was getting 13 a week, like clockwork, out of the two hens, and since Monday, I've gotten 4 total. 2 Monday, 1 Tuesday, and 1 today. The Tom is a bit clumsy at the act of copulation, but he appears to be getting it done. What might be wrong?

 

[SharkmanDan]

I thought I ought to include some photos of them

 

[R2elk]

I read in a book, that Narragansett toms, are unable to successfully mate,mbefore they reach 1 year of age. Another local breeder said, that's not necessarily true, that if they perform and complete the act of copulation, then they are capable of reproducing.
Last Memorial Day, we got several Narragansett turkeys, and through normal attrition, are down to 3. 1 tom and 2 hens. We had 3 toms and 2 hens, but we're getting too much serious fighting, once the hens started laying, and making it clear they were ready to mate. We figured out which tom was favored by the hens, and sold the other two. In the mean time, we would see all three, at first, then just the two, and now that we only have one, copulate with the hens. So, it was generally assumed that the eggs were fertile. I sent several to a local incubator, then several more, to another. The first called last night, and asked that I come over, as none of my eggs had developed. Sure enough, nothing. The second incubator, is supposed to candle, in the next couple of days, but, it's hard to imagine, that all three toms would be completely infertile, unless they simply weren't sexually mature enough, to complete the act of fertilization.
What do you folks say? I'm very disappointed. I don't know if I want to send Lefty to freezer camo, and start over with Bourbon Reds, or what. All three toms were beautiful boys. The hens are laying beautiful eggs, though they slowed down this week. I was getting 13 a week, like clockwork, out of the two hens, and since Monday, I've gotten 4 total. 2 Monday, 1 Tuesday, and 1 today. The Tom is a bit clumsy at the act of copulation, but he appears to be getting it done. What might be wrong?

Just because someone wrote something in a book does not make it true.

If your toms were old enough to mate, they are sexually mature. One of the most common reasons for infertile turkey eggs is too many toms for too few hens. It is very common for the toms to interfere enough with each other that none of the toms get the job done. It is also very common for hens to get injured because of a tom being knocked off a hen's back by another tom. I have a neighbor that has three toms running with seven hens and is getting a 50% fertility rate on his eggs. I have one tom with four hens and am getting a 99%+ fertility rate.

If your infertile eggs were collected from a time when you still had multiple toms that could be the problem. Of course there is always the possibility of having an infertile tom. This year I had a very late developing tom. When the tom was butchered it turned out that he had one testicle about half the size of a normal tom of the same age and one practically undeveloped testicle. I was glad that I made sure that particular tom didn't end up in anyone's breeding program.

I don't choose my breeding toms by which ones the hens seem to prefer but rather by the ones that are the healthiest and best fit the standard for the variety. I always cull late developing toms.

Good luck.

 

[SharkmanDan]

Thank you for that info. It helps. I had made a choice, early on for three toms, one of them being the one displaying, and acting more dominant early on, the other two, seemed similarly assertive, just not as much. The one who seemed to be the Alpha, we named Stay-Puff, for his near constant state of display. The other two were Pancho and Lefty.
But, as mating season came along, Lefty became the more aggressive and dominant one. when they would fight, brutally so, Lefty was the one who NEVER gave up. I believe that he would fight or die, rather than lose a fight. Stay-Puff lost many a fight. The girls, naturally, preferred the victor, and by this time Pancho had been gifted to a friend. When the girls would submit, for copulation, if Stay-Puff went to step on, the girls would get up, and walk to Lefty, and squat for him, doing this repeatedly. It seemed obvious to me, that they only wanted to mate with Lefty, even though he took longer, and seemed to hurt them more, before actually copulating.
So, I don't know. I'm going to have to buy more turkeys, this year, and try to get my flock numbers up. Hopefully, if there is a better, dominant male, emerge, next spring, we can cull Lefty, and move on, at that point. But, egg production is down, drastically, and I think my girls may be finishing up their first season.

 

[feedman77]

Where are you located. Seems early that production would be already winding down.

Mine are just getting laying good.

 

[SharkmanDan]

I am in Eastern Oklahoma, along I40, 30 miles west of the Arkansas border.
My hens started laying good in early to mid February, I was getting 12-13 eggs a week, out of the two hens.
I just re-counted, and re-checked my pencil marks. I got 1 Sunday 3/29; 2 Monday 3/30, and 1 yesterday 4/2. That's a significant slowdown for what they had been doing.

 

[R2elk]

Thank you for that info. It helps. I had made a choice, early on for three toms, one of them being the one displaying, and acting more dominant early on, the other two, seemed similarly assertive, just not as much. The one who seemed to be the Alpha, we named Stay-Puff, for his near constant state of display. The other two were Pancho and Lefty.
But, as mating season came along, Lefty became the more aggressive and dominant one. when they would fight, brutally so, Lefty was the one who NEVER gave up. I believe that he would fight or die, rather than lose a fight. Stay-Puff lost many a fight. The girls, naturally, preferred the victor, and by this time Pancho had been gifted to a friend. When the girls would submit, for copulation, if Stay-Puff went to step on, the girls would get up, and walk to Lefty, and squat for him, doing this repeatedly. It seemed obvious to me, that they only wanted to mate with Lefty, even though he took longer, and seemed to hurt them more, before actually copulating.
So, I don't know. I'm going to have to buy more turkeys, this year, and try to get my flock numbers up. Hopefully, if there is a better, dominant male, emerge, next spring, we can cull Lefty, and move on, at that point. But, egg production is down, drastically, and I think my girls may be finishing up their first season.

It is hard to know what is going on with your egg production without knowing your full situation. Turkey hens are notorious for moving their nests when they feel their nests are being disturbed. They make very good efforts at doing a better job hiding their new nests. At this time of year egg production can drop due to hens going broody. If the eggs are constantly removed it is reasonable to expect laying to continue into October. There is always the concern about egg predation. Raccoons and skunks really love eggs. I have had skunks take eggs right out from under broody hens.

It is also possible that as early as your hens started laying that they may be giving their bodies a well deserved rest.

One thing that you might want to do to help your hens is to put turkey saddles on then. It can help protect them from an over zealous tom or when there are just too few hens to keep a tom well occupied.

Good luck..

 

[feedman77]

My guess they are taking a break. If you picked up eggs they should lay til july at least.

I bet they will start again in a coiple weeks.

Only other thing they don't freerange do they and maybe have a hidden nest.

 

[SharkmanDan]

If anything they're hiding them from me.
Let me inject a bit of background first. My turkey hens, have always preferred to be with the chickens. I had a nice place for them, more than adequate, in every way, but, they just wanted to hang out with the chickens. So, I stopped fighting it. The Tom doesn't want to go under a roof, and the hens think they're chickens, so, the tom stays in the HUGE chicken pen, roosting on their outdoor roost, and the hens hang out with the chickens, and roost in the chicken coop. The coop is a Taj Mahal for these chickens, with 22 nest boxes, for 40 chickens, and well over 200 sq. ft. of floor space, using about 8-10" of pine shavings for a deep litter system.
The Alpha female had a favorite spot in the coop, that, according to everything I've read, seemed to make sense. A nice secluded corner. I would reliably find her eggs there everyday. But, the 8 week old chicks have taken over that spot, since the broody kicked them loose, and she's not laying there anymore. She found a similar corner, opposite that one. The other hen, was always kind of the type to just drop it, wherever. Unless it got cracked, the chickens don't bother it. But, if she would drop it from the roost, on a hard spot, like a ramp, or ladder, the chickens will eat it. But, I check for eggs 5 or 6 times a day, and was at the point where I could nearly predict when the second hen would lay, based on when the Alpha hen laid her egg.
The only significant changes that've happened in the coop, has been the babies getting kicked loose by the one broody, and another chicken hen has gone broody, and is nested up on a BUNCH of eggs. The turkeys may have laid eggs for her to incubate, though I doubt that.
That fourth photo, is the Alpha, nested up, in her original favorite spot, that has been taken over by the babies. I would think though, that if she were intent on keeping that spot, she would not have issue asserting her dominance, and moving those babies into their brooder, that I built into the coop. It has a little 5"x5" hole, for them to escape back in, if they are being picked on, but, nobody is picking on them, badly.

 

[SharkmanDan]

My guess they are taking a break. If you picked up eggs they should lay til july at least.

I bet they will start again in a coiple weeks.

Only other thing they don't freerange do they and maybe have a hidden nest.

While they fly well, they like to stay close to the coop. I haven't seen either of them leave the pen, since I put the toms in there, over 6 weeks ago. And I don't let them loose, then leave them for hours on end. I rarely leave the farm. If I do, there's almost always someone here, just in case of predators.