BDutch's bantam flock & natural breeding projects #5 🪺 🪺 and #6

[BDutch]

Just to share.

A bird that approached me today when I waited for my personal taxichauffeur (husband)
A partidge (@Perris ) that came to eat some breadcrumb somebody threw of of his car.

And a few photo’s of the magnificent mountains here on Madeira!

 

[MaryJanet]

I will give it a go, but I think the question misses the point I was trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to make.
My point is that 'livestock or pet' is a false dichotomy. Having just two categories to describe the full complexity of our relationships with other species is inadequate.

In human relationships the dichotomy 'family or friend' would miss a whole host of relationships such as colleague (or the even less intimate American 'coworker' which, when I first saw the term, I thought was about farming). And I am not even touching on a host of others, largely derived from human social context, such as enemy, subordinate, boss, competitor etc.


So, I would lean towards something like the following:

Livestock: Animals kept solely or primarily for 'use' by the keeper. This would include whether that use is for food, labor, or entertainment for commercial purposes (e.g. circus or zoo animals).

Pet: Animals kept solely or primarily for companionship or personal entertainment of the keeper (entertainment without commercial gain).

Comrade: Animals kept for a balance of psychic and ‘use’ benefits, and with whom we have an individual relationships. I think This would include many back yard chicken flocks.

Ambassador: Wild animals who form friendships with individual humans such as @Perris's pheasant. This is not uncommon and could be considered a category of Comrade - we often provide food to the animal and we derive psychic, non-commercial, benefit (joy, entertainment etc.) from them. I chose Ambassador as in 'they are a representative from another species'. There is probably a better word.

***
I do not think these terms dictate how people treat the animal. A person can be concerned for the welfare of livestock (or not), can mistreat a pet (or not) etc.
Nor do I think it is defined by species as many species can cross boundaries. Chickens obviously. Horses can fall in any of the four categories.

Not sure I have expressed how I feel about this perfectly, but hopefully it provides some food for thought.

Would you put a guide dog for a person with a visual impairment into the comrade category?

 

[MaryJanet]

Hope you feel better today Shad!
It must be difficult to care for chickens living 30 - 60 minutes away from where you live. And I highly respect you doing so.

I learned to know a bit of your character over the past two years and don’t mind all that you vent your thoughts the way you do. As I said before we are all different, different upbringing, different genes, different ability to express our thoughts in writing. It felt good to explain why I make other choices than you do.

And I know, I still have a lot to learn to keep my chickens safe and sound with some benefits for myself too.

Btw, I love these discussions and you all chiming in.

Edit vetter->better

I love a discussion too and hope I see all sides clearly.

For me, death is not of concern. It's inevitable. Not a big deal.

So, life matters more and quality of life matters far more.

The concept of having authority over the lives and deaths of the animals I live with, have affection for, and care for is something I've come to terms with.

I exercise my authority over their lives to ensure there is surplus food available to them at all times, that they have surplus space for getting away from each other, surplus clean water, surplus shelter, surplus ranging outside the chicken run etc etc. For the old cat, I've used my authority to await her death before getting pups because I know she doesn't like sharing her space with other pets.

I feel I failed Janet by not supporting her death transition and instead permitting nature to give her too much pain and suffering. I won't make that mistake again.

We exercise authority over quality of life. Why not quality of death?

 

[MaryJanet]

Just to share.

A bird that approached me today when I waited for my personal taxichauffeur (husband)
A partidge (@Perris ) that came to eat some breadcrumb somebody threw of of his car.
View attachment 3809735
View attachment 3809734

And a few photo’s of the magnificent mountains here on Madeira!
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View attachment 3809742

Spectacular! I'm adding Madeira to the bucket list.

 

[BDutch]

Spectacular! I'm adding Madeira to the bucket list.

A long way to travel. I have New Zealand on my bucket list for about two decades now (since the Lord of the rings movies). But nowadays I doubt I will ever get there. Such a long way to get there. And I’m always surprised how beautiful many nearby places are.

 

[MaryJanet]

A long way to travel. I have New Zealand on my bucket list for about two decades now (since the Lord of the rings movies). But nowadays I doubt I will ever get there. Such a long way to get there. And I’m always surprised how beautiful many nearby places are.

That's a good point actually. Some parts of Australia look amazing in photos. I should see them first.

 

[RoyalChick]

Would you put a guide dog for a person with a visual impairment into the comrade category?

I struggled with that one because they are primarily for use (i.e.. livestock) but I believe strong emotional bonds are formed such that many get adopted even after they age out of their ability to serve. I know this is true for police dogs and rescue dogs which were the example I had in mind when I was writing the post.
So yes, I net out that service providing dogs are comrades and some transition to pet status when they retire.

 

[MaryJanet]

I struggled with that one because they are primarily for use (i.e.. livestock) but I believe strong emotional bonds are formed such that many get adopted even after they age out of their ability to serve. I know this is true for police dogs and rescue dogs which were the example I had in mind when I was writing the post.
So yes, I net out that service providing dogs are comrades and some transition to pet status when they retire.

I was thinking comrade or a special "service" category.

 

[ManueB]

I would understand this because it’s obvious you find it very hard to deal with sick chickens. But if you do, I do recommend to start again one day with a strong breed (not the laying hybrids and the one your neighbours don’t want anymore)

The chicken my neighbour didn't want, Chipie, turned out to be my senior chicken, not sure if she is 7,8 or 9 by now. I think the issue with her was more due to personality than to health .
I admit if I ever decide to get chickens again, I will maybe get ex-batts. Now I know what I am getting into : just giving them one or two year in a happy place before they die of reproductive disease.
The chickens that hatched here act healthy. It's the one I bought from a breeder as point of lay pullets I have troubles with.

and clean soil free of worms and such.

I wish this was possible ! But even if we burned a whole acre of ground, worms don't live in the soil. They arrive with living hosts, flies, snails, mice... and those hosts will still be sufficiently near by that the chickens catch the worms again. In my case, the chickens who did not get worms or got them last, were the one who never left the chicken yard. If my chicken stayed locked up in their run all day they would not have worms... but I think we all agree that is not what we want.

To me that does not need specifying because it goes with the concept of keeping. We have that responsibility for pets, comrades, and livestock.
But I realized I did not clarify that comrades are ‘kept’ (a distinction from Ambassadors) so I have edited the Comrade definition to hopefully make it more clear what I meant.

I love a discussion too and hope I see all sides clearly.

For me, death is not of concern. It's inevitable. Not a big deal.

So, life matters more and quality of life matters far more.

The concept of having authority over the lives and deaths of the animals I live with, have affection for, and care for is something I've come to terms with.

I exercise my authority over their lives to ensure there is surplus food available to them at all times, that they have surplus space for getting away from each other, surplus clean water, surplus shelter, surplus ranging outside the chicken run etc etc. For the old cat, I've used my authority to await her death before getting pups because I know she doesn't like sharing her space with other pets.

I feel I failed Janet by not supporting her death transition and instead permitting nature to give her too much pain and suffering. I won't make that mistake again.

We exercise authority over quality of life. Why not quality of death?

I am very interested by all your thoughts on this.
I would love to see things in your light, RC, so hopefully you can convince me.
The statement made by MJ, to me, makes it very hard or impossible to qualify the relationship as one of friendship or comrades, because precisely of the authority of the keeper on life and death.
To take an extreme example which I don't mean as an analogy, could a slave be friend with the master ? Yes, possibly, in very exceptional circumstances. In most cases, the relationship would be too biased. If the friendship was true, the master would necessarily free the slave at some point.
I don't mean our chickens are slave. But owning the right to decide of their life and death, for me, means I am above all a keeper of a life and that excludes a relation on an equal basis. The chickens did not choose to live with us.
I can see, like Fuzzi, how we can work in the same direction and develop a sort of partnership , especially with the roosters.

As for Janet, MJ, it would be another long discussion. Since you saw her in the nest and thought she was broody, she must not have given evident signs of pain and been uncomfortable. And maybe she was just waiting quietly to die at home when her time had come. How can we know ?

I have some sounds to share with you in relation to Shadrach's remark about broodies not being friendly. Only one of these hens is broody, the 2d one, but all three make it clear I should move away . (It's not my habit by the way to touch hens who lay, I just did it this time to see their reaction.)

 

[RoyalChick]

The chicken my neighbour didn't want, Chipie, turned out to be my senior chicken, not sure if she is 7,8 or 9 by now. I think the issue with her was more due to personality than to health .
I admit if I ever decide to get chickens again, I will maybe get ex-batts. Now I know what I am getting into : just giving them one or two year in a happy place before they die of reproductive disease.
The chickens that hatched here act healthy. It's the one I bought from a breeder as point of lay pullets I have troubles with.

I wish this was possible ! But even if we burned a whole acre of ground, worms don't live in the soil. They arrive with living hosts, flies, snails, mice... and those hosts will still be sufficiently near by that the chickens catch the worms again. In my case, the chickens who did not get worms or got them last, were the one who never left the chicken yard. If my chicken stayed locked up in their run all day they would not have worms... but I think we all agree that is not what we want.


I am very interested by all your thoughts on this.
I would love to see things in your light, RC, so hopefully you can convince me.
The statement made by MJ, to me, makes it very hard or impossible to qualify the relationship as one of friendship or comrades, because precisely of the authority of the keeper on life and death.
To take an extreme example which I don't mean as an analogy, could a slave be friend with the master ? Yes, possibly, in very exceptional circumstances. In most cases, the relationship would be too biased. If the friendship was true, the master would necessarily free the slave at some point.
I don't mean our chickens are slave. But owning the right to decide of their life and death, for me, means I am above all a keeper of a life and that excludes a relation on an equal basis. The chickens did not choose to live with us.
I can see, like Fuzzi, how we can work in the same direction and develop a sort of partnership , especially with the roosters.

As for Janet, MJ, it would be another long discussion. Since you saw her in the nest and thought she was broody, she must not have given evident signs of pain and been uncomfortable. And maybe she was just waiting quietly to die at home when her time had come. How can we know ?

I have some sounds to share with you in relation to Shadrach's remark about broodies not being friendly. Only one of these hens is broody, the 2d one, but all three make it clear I should move away . (It's not my habit by the way to touch hens who lay, I just did it this time to see their reaction.)

Love the warning sounds!

I assume your issue with my categories is only with comrade because it implies parity and you find it hard to believe in parity when one side of the relationship has the power to end the life of the other. Have I got that right?

If I have understood you right, then I do not see it quite the same way. I hope when my time comes someone will ensure I have an easy death. That to me is an act of friendship or a service. I provide that to my pets and my comrade animals, and I hope a human comrade will provide that for me.