Blue copper Marans with blue hackles

[NorthwoodsChick]

I am confused about blue coloring in Marans.
I have a 1 yr old BBS Marans hen. She is blue with blue hackles. The breeder tells me she is a Blue Copper Marans.
BBS I black/blue/ splash- easy enough.
So- where’s the copper part come in? Is there such a thing as black or blue Marans or are all BBS Marans black copper, blue copper, or splash??

 

[NorthwoodsChick]

Pic would be nice, right?

 

[EggSighted4Life]

So- where’s the copper part come in? Is there such a thing as black or blue Marans or are all BBS Marans black copper, blue copper, or splash??

They're two separate colors.. but folks that don't know that may be running them together like I did in the past.

Example with some of the available colors..

https://practicalselfreliance.com/marans-chicken-breed-guide/

Notice the following link lists "blue splash" as separate from blue copper and does not attempt to call it splash copper either.. which should still have the red/copper if it were spalsh copper.. You can also see there's blue Birchen and blue Wheaten also possible.

https://www.mypetchicken.com/blogs/our-blog/marans-chicken-breed-the-ultimate-guide

Whether yours is just a poorly marked blue copper (hatchery, pet, laying quality) or blue.. that I don't know.. but it's a good question!

Hopefully someone with more genetics understanding will explain it more clearly. @NatJ or @Amer or @MysteryChicken do you have a clearer answer than mine? TIA!

 

[NatJ]

I am confused about blue coloring in Marans.
I have a 1 yr old BBS Marans hen. She is blue with blue hackles. The breeder tells me she is a Blue Copper Marans.
BBS I black/blue/ splash- easy enough.
So- where’s the copper part come in? Is there such a thing as black or blue Marans or are all BBS Marans black copper, blue copper, or splash??

Black, blue, splash should be one set of colors (genetically solid black, with or without the blue gene diluting the black color to blue or splash.)

Black Copper, Blue Copper, Splash Copper should be a different set of colors (all showing the copper, with or without the blue gene diluting the black parts to blue or splash.)

Even though that "should" be the case, I do not know what actually exists in Marans.

The American Poultry Association list of breeds includes Black Marans and Black Copper Marans, but no blue or splash version of either one.
https://amerpoultryassn.com/accepted-breeds-varieties/
(I selected breed "Marans" to save time looking through the list.)

I know that other colors exist, not just the ones recognized by that association. But I don't know where to find an actual list. I would expect there to be blue and splash versions of both the solid and the with-copper ones, but I do not know for sure.

 

[MysteryChicken]

Pic would be nice, right?
View attachment 3809808

She could be a Blue Copper Marans, some hens lack the actual red/copper in the hackles. This could be either due to poor breeding, or some extra Melanizer(s), that can be covering it up.

Another possibility is that she could be Blue Birchen, which the silver version of Black, or Blue Copper. Females of this variety don't always show the Silver in the hackles either.

 

[NorthwoodsChick]

They're two separate colors.. but folks that don't know that may be running them together like I did in the past.

Example with some of the available colors..

https://practicalselfreliance.com/marans-chicken-breed-guide/

Notice the following link lists "blue splash" as separate from blue copper and does not attempt to call it splash copper either.. which should still have the red/copper if it were spalsh copper.. You can also see there's blue Birchen and blue Wheaten also possible.

https://www.mypetchicken.com/blogs/our-blog/marans-chicken-breed-the-ultimate-guide

Whether yours is just a poorly marked blue copper (hatchery, pet, laying quality) or blue.. that I don't know.. but it's a good question!

Hopefully someone with more genetics understanding will explain it more clearly. @NatJ or @Amer or @MysteryChicken do you have a clearer answer than mine? TIA!

Thank you. They are not hatchery as far as I know. I purchased from a breeder who told me their stock was not hatchery quality.

 

[NorthwoodsChick]

She could be a Blue Copper Marans, some hens lack the actual red/copper in the hackles. This could be either due to poor breeding, or some extra Melanizer(s), that can be covering it up.

Another possibility is that she could be Blue Birchen, which the silver version of Black, or Blue Copper. Females of this variety don't always show the Silver in the hackles either.

Interesting. I purchased hatching eggs from the same breeder and hatched six (2 black mmale & fem, 3 blue with one def a male).
The male blue is much lighter than the other 2 blues so my suspicion is the genetic kinks have not been worked out in the parent stock.
It will be interesting to see how they feather out.

 

[NorthwoodsChick]

Black, blue, splash should be one set of colors (genetically solid black, with or without the blue gene diluting the black color to blue or splash.)

Black Copper, Blue Copper, Splash Copper should be a different set of colors (all showing the copper, with or without the blue gene diluting the black parts to blue or splash.)

Even though that "should" be the case, I do not know what actually exists in Marans.

The American Poultry Association list of breeds includes Black Marans and Black Copper Marans, but no blue or splash version of either one.
https://amerpoultryassn.com/accepted-breeds-varieties/
(I selected breed "Marans" to save time looking through the list.)

I know that other colors exist, not just the ones recognized by that association. But I don't know where to find an actual list. I would expect there to be blue and splash versions of both the solid and the with-copper ones, but I do not know for sure.

Thank you. What’s interesting to me is the breeder calls them BBS but also copper as if the terms are synonymous. I hatched Marans from same breeder and two black chicks have blk/white like blk copper Marans and one male has very heavy leg feathering.

When you say ‘genetically solid black’ can it be implied that the black Marans and BCM chicks should have different down coloring? Specifically, would BBS black lack white markings that a BCM would have?

Much appreciated!

 

[NatJ]

Thank you. What’s interesting to me is the breeder calls them BBS but also copper as if the terms are synonymous. I hatched Marans from same breeder and two black chicks have blk/white like blk copper Marans and one male has very heavy leg feathering.

The breeder may think the terms are synonymous.

Or the breeder may have mixed them together.

Or the breeder may be a bit careless in how they are talking about them. It's easy to do, using a shortened form of a color name. (Common example: people talking about Mille Fleur d'Uccles will often skip the breed name and just call them Mille Fleurs, ignoring the fact that several other breeds also come in Mille Fleur color.)

When you say ‘genetically solid black’ can it be implied that the black Marans and BCM chicks should have different down coloring? Specifically, would BBS black lack white markings that a BCM would have?

When I said "solid black," I was talking about the adult color, not the chick color.

Chicks that grow up to be solid black will often hatch with markings like penguins (yellow or white on the belly and some other areas, black on the back.)

The Black Copper pattern should be the same as Birchen pattern (except for having copper rather than silver). Birchen chicks seem more likely to hatch out all black, as compared with chicks that grow up to actually be all black.

Unfortunately, I don't know any way to be sure of telling them apart at hatch. Some Black Copper or Birchen chicks show light markings like black chicks, and some chicks that hatch out all black do grow up to have black feathers all over (Ayam Cemani being the most obvious example of this.)

If someone has been mixing black with black copper, then there could be chicks that have one gene for Birchen and one gene for Extended Black (that's the one expected in chicks that will be black all over). That would confuse things even further.

And just to make things more complicated, it is possible to breed Birchen or Black Copper chickens to have less and less of silver or copper color, and after some years of this they look entirely black. This could have happened in the breeder's flock of Marans, or in other Marans flocks. It would be a good reason for them to think that Blue Copper and Blue are the same thing, if "Blue Copper" actually looks solid blue anyway.

I have been saying "Black" and "Black Copper" and "Birchen" without mentioning blue or splash most of the time. The blue gene changes black into blue or splash, but does not change where the black would be. So I was mostly ignoring it, since I was focusing on where the "black" is on the chicks and adults, not on whether the "black" is actually diluted to blue or splash.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Thank you. They are not hatchery as far as I know. I purchased from a breeder who told me their stock was not hatchery quality.

Quality is subjective, regardless of source.

Your girl is still lovely.