Cropping and Dubbing in 4-H

[NatJ]

Stags, & Cocks(Roosters) only. Hens/pullets don't need to be dubbed.

Dubbing can be done anywhere between 10 weeks to a year of age, as long as the comb, & wattles are grown out enough. But it must be done before a bird is shown.

I would love to show, and even though I would most likely not have the space or time for breeding chickens, I want to ask a question. Is it required to crop and dub gamefowl in 4-H as it is with other chicken shows? If I ever showed, I would want to show gamefowl because I love them and they are unique, but I am never abusing animals in any way, so if I was required to crop and dub gamefowl that would be an immediate no. I am just curious as to what the rules on gamefowl are at 4-H.

Maybe just show females, since dubbing is not required for them, and keep the males at home undubbed. That would be a way to have your favorite kind of chickens, show some of them, and avoid dubbing any.

 

[Amer]

Assuming this is all for show now, would it just be better to breed in pea combs?

No.
Historically, the exhibition breed is single combed and to breed in pea combs would spoil the breed.
Although to be fair historically Old English did have pea combs like many of our American Games today.
You could certainly cross the breeds but it would take years and years to get something even close to what they have right now.

Also, the females have single combs it’s not like you can have a breed with only singled combed females and only pea combed males.
It’s much easier to stop dubbing altogether like they did in Europe.

Also @SwampPrincessChick while I am mostly against dubbing I must say it is impossible to achieve the appearance of a dubbed bird through genetics.

 

[Amer]

One variety of Serama is accepted by the APA but three or four are accepted by the ABA.
Blue, black, exchequer and I think they are working on getting wheaten accepted as well.

 

[SwampPrincessChick]

Also @SwampPrincessChick while I am mostly against dubbing I must say it is impossible to achieve the appearance of a dubbed bird through genetics.

It is not impossible if breeders took their time to make it possible, but unfortunately they wish to not. To say it is impossible would be to say that no chicken could have a small comb and small wattles, which do indeed exist. If it was impossible then my Easter Eggers would not have such flat combs that they look like they had been dubbed.

One variety of Serama is accepted by the APA but three or four are accepted by the ABA.
Blue, black, exchequer and I think they are working on getting wheaten accepted as well.

Thank you! I checked in the American Standard of Perfection and yes there is only white accepted. White is an easier color to work with, I hear.

 

[Amer]

It is not impossible if breeders took their time to make it possible, but unfortunately they wish to not. To say it is impossible would be to say that no chicken could have a small comb and small wattles, which do indeed exist. If it was impossible then my Easter Eggers would not have such flat combs that they look like they had been dubbed.


Thank you! I checked in the American Standard of Perfection and yes there is only white accepted. White is an easier color to work with, I hear.

Bro. I understand genetics. It's not possible for females to have single combs and males to have the appearance of no comb (or mohawk style comb), wattles, or earlobes, it's just not. Small combs and wattles are not the same thing. This is not like naturally polled livestock.

 

[NatJ]

Bro. I understand genetics. It's not possible for females to have single combs and males to have the appearance of no comb (or mohawk style comb), wattles, or earlobes, it's just not. Small combs and wattles are not the same thing. This is not like naturally polled livestock.

Unless you want to breed two completely different genetic lines:
One with single combs, and take only females to shows.
One with completely different comb/wattle genetics, so the males look like dubbed males, and from that line only the males are taken to shows.

That seems like a lot of bother to me, but might be possible if someone was determined enough (many years, many chickens involved in the breeding project, quite a lot of effort on the part of the person).

I agree that it would be genetically impossible to get both types in one single true-breeding group. Either you have the genes for the female single comb type (and the males have single combs too), or you have the genes for the males with fake-dubbed combs (and the females have a smaller version of that same comb type.)

It is not impossible if breeders took their time to make it possible, but unfortunately they wish to not. To say it is impossible would be to say that no chicken could have a small comb and small wattles, which do indeed exist. If it was impossible then my Easter Eggers would not have such flat combs that they look like they had been dubbed.

I wonder if you could breed them to look enough like dubbed ones that you could just enter the males in shows, not say anything, and not have them disqualified? That would be the real test of whether it looks "the same," to see if it even gets noticed by people who are used to looking at dubbed males.

In general, chickens for shows have to LOOK right, and people don't care too much what ancestors were involved to get that result. So if the chicken LOOKS right, they will probably not care if it was actually dubbed or naturally grew that way.

 

[SwampPrincessChick]

Bro. I understand genetics. It's not possible for females to have single combs and males to have the appearance of no comb (or mohawk style comb), wattles, or earlobes, it's just not. Small combs and wattles are not the same thing. This is not like naturally polled livestock.

I was talking about breeding both genders to have small combs, earlobes, and wattles, not only the males as that would be impossible. Sorry for any confusion I caused.

I wonder if you could breed them to look enough like dubbed ones that you could just enter the males in shows, not say anything, and not have them disqualified? That would be the real test of whether it looks "the same," to see if it even gets noticed by people who are used to looking at dubbed males.

That is what I was thinking! Do the judges even ask if the male has been dubbed and cropped?

 

[sdm111]

Stags, & Cocks(Roosters) only. Hens/pullets don't need to be dubbed.

Dubbing can be done anywhere between 10 weeks to a year of age, as long as the comb, & wattles are grown out enough. But it must be done before a bird is shown.

I have found 8 to 9 months old is the sweet spot for me

 

[NatJ]

That is what I was thinking! Do the judges even ask if the male has been dubbed and cropped?

My "knowledge" of showing is based on what I've picked up from reading this forum, so I don't know for sure.

I've heard of many situations where you need a vet's certificate to say your animal is healthy before you can take it to a show. That would be a case where "looks right" is not enough (looks healthy, but still needs the certificate.) But I've never heard of anything similar for how many toes a Silkie is supposed to have (the judge can just count, and disqualify the bird if it is wrong, rather than needing any kind of statement from someone else about the matter.)

You could get a copy of the Standard of Perfection and read what it says. Or, since you are specifically interested in 4H showing, ask someone involved with that. Or even look at the entry form that you would have to fill out. If they do not have a spot asking about it, then you probably do not have to officially state it.

 

[MysteryChicken]

I have found 8 to 9 months old is the sweet spot for me

Yeah.