Effect of Autosomal Red on silver duckwing

[Amer]

This is MY UNDERSTANDING of autosomal red from the Poultry Colors Genetics book by Sigrid Van Doort but I am not absolutely sure it this is how it works.
Supposedly, this is what Autosomal Red does to silver. Here pictured: silver Phoenix hens. Without the autosomal red you get silvery breasts. With it, you get proper red breasts. This is why silver is so hard to breed, because the standard calls for silver shoulders on males (no autosomal red) and red breasts of females (autosomal red.) Further complicated because homozygous autosomal red often causes browning on the back of females which should have silver.

 

[Amer]

@Overo Mare @MysteryChicken @MagpieDucks @The Moonshiner @EmmaRainboe and anyone who might find this interesting

 

[MysteryChicken]

This is how it effects the back of my boy Bigfoot.
Rest of his silver feathering is creamy.

both my Silkies, & Silver Duckwing OEGBs carry Autosomal Red.

Good thread. I'm currently still trying to learn about this particular gene.

 

[The Moonshiner]

In case you wanted to see exactly what Autosomal Red does to silver. Here pictured: silver Phoenix hens. Without the autosomal red you get silvery breasts. With it, you get proper red breasts. This is why silver is so hard to breed, because the standard calls for silver shoulders on males (no autosomal red) and red breasts of females (autosomal red.) Further complicated because homozygous autosomal red often causes browning on the back of females which should have silver.
View attachment 3248605View attachment 3248606View attachment 3248608

So how does this work exactly in a breeding group of silver duckwing?
Mine always bred like they should. All females had the reddish breasts and no males showed any signs of it.
When I started crossing with gold duckwings I'd occasionally get silver looking males but with the red shoulders. People would say those had the autosomal red brought in from the gold DW. But shouldn't of the silver DWs males have always had it in order for females to always show the reddish breasts?

 

[Amer]

So how does this work exactly in a breeding group of silver duckwing?
Mine always bred like they should. All females had the reddish breasts and no males showed any signs of it.
When I started crossing with gold duckwings I'd occasionally get silver looking males but with the red shoulders. People would say those had the autosomal red brought in from the gold DW. But shouldn't of the silver DWs males have always had it in order for females to always show the reddish breasts?

Idk? I should have put a disclaimer that that was how I understood it from the poultry books but I’m not sure.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Idk? I should have put a disclaimer that that was how I understood it from the poultry books but I’m not sure.

Ya. It's interesting. I've heard different things at different times but it's been conflicting and I haven't been able to put anything together that works out completely.
To me it seems like it isn't what causes the reddish breasts but idk.

 

[Amer]

@nicalandia would you like to affirm or refute this? Do you know why these birds look as they do?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

So how does this work exactly in a breeding group of silver duckwing?
Mine always bred like they should. All females had the reddish breasts and no males showed any signs of it.
When I started crossing with gold duckwings I'd occasionally get silver looking males but with the red shoulders. People would say those had the autosomal red brought in from the gold DW. But shouldn't of the silver DWs males have always had it in order for females to always show the reddish breasts?

This was my immediate thought on it as well, reading the first post. I certainly don't have the same depth of experience with it, but when I was breeding my Black/Fawn/Khaki Silver Duckwing OEGBs, all of my females had salmon fronts like the second hen in the first post, and none of the males they produced had any kind of red at all in their plumage.

Definitely following with interest!

 

[The Moonshiner]

It's just odd that I've continually been told it's what's responsible for the females breast color and the males shoulder color.
It would make sense in gold based DW and I can see it on them. But the lack of it on the male silver DW throws a kink in the works.
Interesting when I've crossed the two and got "golden" males it shows in maybe 1 out of 12 to 15 with the really dark color.
They've either not got it right or there's something else also involved. The books are quicker and easier to learn from but birds on the ground and great for making you scratch your head.

 

[nicalandia]

@nicalandia would you like to affirm or refute this? Do you know why these birds look as they do?

Many things have been said and many takes have been taken on "Autosomal Red" expression and by many knowledgeable people. To me Brian Reeder has the closest take on this subject.

Autosomal Red is the expression of Autosomal Pheomelanin(aph) and other red enhancers.


Aph+(Autosomal Pheomelanin Co-Dominant)
Aph^I(Autosomal Pheomelanin Inhibitor)

When hens are heterozygous for Aph^I, the breast can be patchy, showing salmon areas and cream areas, sometimes as slight lacing of cream on the salmon breast feathers, and sometimes as patches of cream or even a central area of cream in the center of the salmon breast. Fully homozygous hens for Aph^I show very little color in the breast, with the breast tending toward cream/beige with very little salmon tone at all. While these hens will have a lighter tone of cream with S (Silver), even the s+ (red) hens show a very pale breast of a beige tone when Aph^I is homozygous..