Frizzled and White Ayam Cemani?

[BirdsBeesTrees]

I tagged you in the thread I made from November showing my white ones, they look different than yours. I love the pure black legs on your babies!

 

[Zodiac Acres]

Before you call me crazy, please bear with me! I've been on a long hiatus from BYC so I'm a bit out of touch. 2 things to start.

#1: I've raised around 4 generations of my Ayam Cemani flock (adding new blood here and there). I originally purchased them from a hatchery in Naples, FL that was going out of business and was told they originated from Greenfire Farms stock. For the first couple hatches everything was normal, and then out came a white chick! It had dark skin, eyes, and nails just like a Cemani but hatched out with white/grey feathering. I swore I had a rogue rooster that was getting to my hens so I secured their pen and bred for several more months, only to get more and more white chicks. On average I would get 1 white for every 12 hatched. Did some googling and turns out there is something called a Putih Cemani in Indonesia. Putih - meaning white. Apparently some of my breeding stock are recessive for white, so I began breeding for white!

#2: I discovered what the frizzled gene was and decided that every chicken I owned needed to be frizzled, including my Cemani's. I started perfecting my frizzled Cemani and found out, yet again, there's a name for them in Indonesia - Walik Ayam Cemani. I now have 2 frizzled Cemani hens added to my flock.

In total, I have 5 hens and 1 rooster currently together. 2 frizzled, 1 white, 2 'standard' that are split for white and a 'standard' rooster split as well. I hatch out about 50% regular Ayam Cemani, 30% frizzled and 20% white.

So to get to my final point, I'm curious about selling hatching eggs. I've been selling locally here and there but decide to start shipping and have no clue what is a fair price. I've posted some listings on eBay to test the waters but I don't want to rip people off, or even sell too low if they are something to be desired.

So what do you think BYC? Would you buy a white or frizzled Ayam Cemani? Why or why not? If so, what price do you think is fair? All replies are greatly appreciated

Pictures incoming!

So I personally have been watching your ebay auctions for at least 6 months now. I see the amount of traffic you get and the amount of income you are making. Congratulations on doing really well for yourself financially. I messaged you on ebay previously about your white chicks, but haven't purchased and I'll tell you why.

If you look at the photos you posted of the white Cemani, it does not meet breed standard. It has white toes, white toenails, and pink quicks. Those are all cull features. Any Cemani (regardless of type) with so much as a pink quick gets culled because that is the limit for breeder quality birds. Full exterior fibro including quicks. You never breed a bird with white toes, white toenails, and/or pink quicks. It is evidence that the fibromelanism is very obviously incomplete. Contrary to the rampant misinformation, white toes do NOT "turn black" over time and pink mouths do not "turn black" over time. They may grow and fade with the growth of the bird, but they are still culls carrying cull genetics into your subsequent generations. You are hurting your own quality by keeping and breeding pet quality birds like the Putih with bad toes. When you breed this mismarked bird with all of your others, you are keeping it's low quality lineage and white toes mixed with your high quality lineage fully exterior fibro. Your other black Cemanis look very good with black quicks and black toenails, only clear nail tips. You improve fibro by only breeding birds with the blackest skin and blackest nails. The goal is for no nail tips to be clear, period. The other factor you are missing here is the color of the inside of the mouth. The quality of a Cemani cannot be known until one has seen the inside of it's mouth. And while there are black mouth chicks with white toes, it isn't very common unless the breeder hasn't been doing their due culling. I got one once from a breeder who had spent hundreds on stock from a very respected and well-known breeder, yet doesn't cull so still has very low quality hatches overall.

Having all of these Cemani varieties in the same flock is a major mistake because they will never breed true. Someone who buys your eggs thinking they will get high quality birds would be sadly disappointed to find out your breeding stock is mismarked to the naked, knowledgeable eye and is a mix of high and low quality instead of all being high. In my opinion, if you want to respectably breed 3 varieties of Cemani and advertise them the way you do, you need to start with high quality fibro stock of each variety and isolate the desirable traits instead of selling a mixed bag for novelty. You need 3 separate flocks. Props to you on the high income, but you are hurting the value of your offspring overall when you aren't appropriately culling. Hopefully this makes sense

 

[Ihavesomechickens]

I would love a white Ayam cemani

 

[Zackface]

Sorry for the late reply, I was out of town for a bit! I'm going to try and see if I can find the original webpage that started all of this, I vaguely remember it being in Indonesian that google had translated for me If I find it I'll link it here!

When you gonna sell eggs for white cemanis again? Very interested! Give me link or let me know where to watch!

 

[fletcherfarmandfleet]

Those are some beautiful birds! I realize I have found an "old thread"....but do you still sell the hatching eggs? I would be very interested in the white and frizzles

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I actually bought eggs from you last march/april (I think it was you since they're the same pictures).
I bought a dozen and got 2 to hatch (a third developed fully but had 2 membranes so he never made it out, and multiples developed so I still consider it great since they were my first shipped eggs ever)

I got a pair, Tyrion and Shae. Tyrion is normal and Shaw is a beautiful frizzle. I love them, and I got to show off for a judge at my last 4H fair by explaining to him what he needed to judge them on

One thing I noticed is that they do have some hackle leakage. Is this very common? Personally I think it just makes Tyrion look even neater and you can hardly tell Shae has any

 

[Biring]

There’s currently a bit of a craze for ayam walik here in Indonesia, but they’re not to my taste.

 

[CiaBia]

So I personally have been watching your ebay auctions for at least 6 months now. I see the amount of traffic you get and the amount of income you are making. Congratulations on doing really well for yourself financially. I messaged you on ebay previously about your white chicks, but haven't purchased and I'll tell you why.

If you look at the photos you posted of the white Cemani, it does not meet breed standard. It has white toes, white toenails, and pink quicks. Those are all cull features. Any Cemani (regardless of type) with so much as a pink quick gets culled because that is the limit for breeder quality birds. Full exterior fibro including quicks. You never breed a bird with white toes, white toenails, and/or pink quicks. It is evidence that the fibromelanism is very obviously incomplete. Contrary to the rampant misinformation, white toes do NOT "turn black" over time and pink mouths do not "turn black" over time. They may grow and fade with the growth of the bird, but they are still culls carrying cull genetics into your subsequent generations. You are hurting your own quality by keeping and breeding pet quality birds like the Putih with bad toes. When you breed this mismarked bird with all of your others, you are keeping it's low quality lineage and white toes mixed with your high quality lineage fully exterior fibro. Your other black Cemanis look very good with black quicks and black toenails, only clear nail tips. You improve fibro by only breeding birds with the blackest skin and blackest nails. The goal is for no nail tips to be clear, period. The other factor you are missing here is the color of the inside of the mouth. The quality of a Cemani cannot be known until one has seen the inside of it's mouth. And while there are black mouth chicks with white toes, it isn't very common unless the breeder hasn't been doing their due culling. I got one once from a breeder who had spent hundreds on stock from a very respected and well-known breeder, yet doesn't cull so still has very low quality hatches overall.

Having all of these Cemani varieties in the same flock is a major mistake because they will never breed true. Someone who buys your eggs thinking they will get high quality birds would be sadly disappointed to find out your breeding stock is mismarked to the naked, knowledgeable eye and is a mix of high and low quality instead of all being high. In my opinion, if you want to respectably breed 3 varieties of Cemani and advertise them the way you do, you need to start with high quality fibro stock of each variety and isolate the desirable traits instead of selling a mixed bag for novelty. You need 3 separate flocks. Props to you on the high income, but you are hurting the value of your offspring overall when you aren't appropriately culling. Hopefully this makes sense

Thanks so much for the thorough and thoughtful reply! Yes I do plan on separating my flocks as soon as I have enough laying white Cemani. I have since invested in 3 beautiful pure black Indonesian Ayam Cemani roos, and plan on using them with my frizzled and 'standard' Cemani to both diversify and improve the Fibro in my lines. I don't advertise my Ayam Cemani eggs as being the blackest of the black due to their mixed lineage, I have been marketing these eggs to people that are interested in the white or frizzled varieties specifically. Since both of these are very new to the US I don't expect my lines to be perfect, and hope to continue to improve them with each generation!

As far as the pink quills and light nails with the white Cemani, I have noticed this is pretty consistent with all of the white chicks that hatch. If you look at my photos of the white Cemani, it the same chick from hatch to hen. The chick actually hatched with solid black skin, but the skin fades to grey as they age. Similar to how white silkies (especially paints) tend to have 'bleached' out skin compared to their black counterparts, I believe it is the recessive white gene that is causing the inconsistencies in the fibro skin. I have been searching for a more accurate name to call the Putih Ayam Cemani, instead of simply calling them white Cemani, since it tends to be a bit deceiving as they do not meet some breed standards like you mentioned. I have heard of a woman working on Moonbeams, which sounds as close to a white Cemani as I have found. She has had the same issues with the white on black skin inconsistency, and as been working on getting a solid black-skinned rooster for some time - Developing Moonbeams. Definitely seems to be the challenge with these birds!

Edit: Added the link to Moonbeams

 

[CiaBia]

When you gonna sell eggs for white cemanis again? Very interested! Give me link or let me know where to watch!

Those are some beautiful birds! I realize I have found an "old thread"....but do you still sell the hatching eggs? I would be very interested in the white and frizzles

I am almost done catching up on current pending orders, and should have more shipping dates available next week! Feel free to follow me on eBay or I can send you a message when they are ready to ship

 

[CiaBia]

I actually bought eggs from you last march/april (I think it was you since they're the same pictures).
I bought a dozen and got 2 to hatch (a third developed fully but had 2 membranes so he never made it out, and multiples developed so I still consider it great since they were my first shipped eggs ever)

I got a pair, Tyrion and Shae. Tyrion is normal and Shaw is a beautiful frizzle. I love them, and I got to show off for a judge at my last 4H fair by explaining to him what he needed to judge them on

One thing I noticed is that they do have some hackle leakage. Is this very common? Personally I think it just makes Tyrion look even neater and you can hardly tell Shae has any

View attachment 2378649View attachment 2378650

Thanks so much for posting, I love seeing chicks from this group! I have had some color leakage pop up on occasion, though it is typically noticeable in the males as they tend to express it more. I have isolated it to being from my frizzled line, and am currently working on breeding it out. I do think it adds a very unique look to them though! Since the frizzled and white Ayam Cemani are so new in the States it is still a work in progress, but I am getting closer to SOP with each generation.