Incomplete mottled vs mottled

[inquisitivebird]

I've just started a project to create a spangled Orpington by breeding a black Orpington rooster with a speckled sussex hen. I've put the cros I to the chicken calculator and expect to get all black offspring with split for mottling. My plan is to cross the siblings together. When put hat in the chicken calculator, I get a huge range of possible outcomes for the Offspring. Some of which say incomplete mottled.

My question is, if mottling is recessive and you need two copies, how is it possible to get incomplete mottling if both parents are split. Wouldn't you get 3/4 not mottled and 1/4 mottled? Wouldn't it be mottled or not mottled? How would I tell the difference?

My plan is to then take any black mottled hens and breed them back the the black Orpington rooster. But I want to be sure I'm doing that with complete mottled hens.

 

[The Moonshiner]

What did you put in for the speckled Sussex?
And why don't you just get some jubilee Orpingtons?

 

[inquisitivebird]

What did you put in for the speckled Sussex?
And why don't you just get some jubilee Orpingtons?

I just put in speckled sussex. I think it called that 'black patterned red millefleur'.

I live in new Zealand and we don't have those colours of Orpington here. That's why I'm trying to create them from scratch.

And I've just realised that the 'incomplete' wording only shows up on the millefleur and not the the all black mottled. So I shouldn't have a problem I think if I'm just going for the spangled. But, if I wanted to breed a jubilee Orpington, how would I tell the difference between incomplete and regular millefleur?

 

[nicalandia]

I get a huge range of possible outcomes for the Offspring. Some of which say incomplete mottled.

The calculator while a very powerful tool, it's not perfect and some of that is due to the naming of things(not that the calculations are wrong), there is no such thing as Incomplete Mottled, but many times you will see that Heterozygous Mottled(E/E, Mo+/mo) do have some faint mottling. All of the F1s will be E/e+, Mo+/mo, What you will do is try to cross back any of those F1 females back to Black and see if you are able to spot the faint mottling on both genders.

Or just breed F1xF1 and look for black mottled chicks.

 

[inquisitivebird]

The calculator while a very powerful tool, it's not perfect and some of that is due to the naming of things(not that the calculations are wrong), there is no such thing as Incomplete Mottled, but many times you will see that Heterozygous Mottled(E/E, Mo+/mo) do have some faint mottling. All of the F1s will be E/e+, Mo+/mo, What you will do is try to cross back any of those F1 females back to Black and see if you are able to spot the faint mottling on both genders.

Or just breed F1xF1 and look for black mottled chicks.

Yes, that's what I said I would do. Breed the f1s together. So you're saying the incomplete mottling isn't a thing? And would those actually be mottled with 2 copies?

 

[nicalandia]

So you're saying the incomplete mottling isn't a thing? And would those actually be mottled with 2 copies?

There is no such a name given to a phenotype that is called "incomplete mottled" It's either mottled or not mottled. Mottled birds have two copies of the mo/mo

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Birds that are split for mottling (heterozygous) like the f1 generation of this cross would be definitely do often tend to show faint indications of very slight mottling. Unlike homozygous (fully) mottled birds, they often molt out those faint spots as opposed to getting more with each molt.

I've never heard the term "incomplete mottling" used but it makes perfect sense for these birds carrying only one copy of the mottling gene. Mottling is strange in that is one of the few recessive traits where you can actually often *see* which birds are splits.

 

[inquisitivebird]

Birds that are split for mottling (heterozygous) like the f1 generation of this cross would be definitely do often tend to show faint indications of very slight mottling. Unlike homozygous (fully) mottled birds, they often molt out those faint spots as opposed to getting more with each molt.

I've never heard the term "incomplete mottling" used but it makes perfect sense for these birds carrying only one copy of the mottling gene. Mottling is strange in that is one of the few recessive traits where you can actually often *see* which birds are splits.

Yes, that's so interesting to know about how you can tell when it's split. I think that would make sense to call it incomplete mottling, however in the chicken calculator the birds with incomplete mottling have 2 copies of the mottling gene. So maybe it's just a hiccup in the calculator? Maybe those birds would just be regularly mottled? Maybe there is another gene that often goes together with mottled and if it's not present it's called incomplete? Lol I don't know.

 

[Poultrybonkers]

I did this with a wyandotte x ss then bred the offspring together and still only got splits so bred those splits together...yet again only got more splits no mottling even though its suppose to be 1/4 chances getting a mottled and if your going for spangled thats not the same as mottling its a different pattern

 

[inquisitivebird]

I did this with a wyandotte x ss then bred the offspring together and still only got splits so bred those splits together...yet again only got more splits no mottling even though its suppose to be 1/4 chances getting a mottled and if your going for spangled thats not the same as mottling its a different pattern

That's interesting. What color wyandotte did you use? I'm still keen try try it myself with Orpingtons. The chicken calculator says I should get a black mottled hen in 1 out of every 11 birds if I cross the splits.

I'd love to know what the patterning in spangled orpingtons is if it is something other than the mottling gene. Can you direct me in the right direction to find that out?