Jest Another Day in Pear-A-Dice - Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm in Alberta

[scottcaddy]

Thank You!!! Tara, you just told me why my Lav. Ameraucana Roo's look a bit crappy in the tail.
Now on how to fix the problem?
Thanks Much!!
Scott

 

[Wisher1000]

Oh, no, not reprorting back to anyone. Just trying to get a general idea of color genetics for Ameraucanas.

I mentioned to you before that I have some Blue/Black Splash (cock) x Blue Wheaton (hen) crossed chicks that have some puzzling colors. Some look lavender in their fuzzy chick clothes, but are growing out white wing feathers. Others are looking decidedly Blue (darker head and wings, lighter grey body) and STRANGELY some look black, although I know that is not supposed to be possible. I think they may be dark blue when they feather out. All the interesting colors is making it really hard for me to advertise these chicks for sale, I want to see what happens!

I'm just trying to learn a little........

 

[Amberjem]

Your question could be confusing. Lavender is a colour (called Pearlgrey in Europe) and also genetics (lav/lav blocks pigment from entering feathers) but self-blue is usually a term used just for a colour, not genetics. Blue dilution (Bl) oxidizes black pigment and does not block pigment from entering the feather like lav/lav does.

But I know what you are asking, so in the genetic sense, NO is my simple reply but that is never enough, eh...not enough for us to learn the WHY to the NO.


We can start off by saying that Self-Blue COLOUR is made with the following three GENETICS; lav/lav with eumelanin / Bl/bl"+" with eumelanin, and rare I^S.

Self blue may be made with: (1) lavender genetics (lav/lav on black pigment creates an all blue, no lacing feathered bird) as well as (2) blue dilution genetics (Bl/bl"+" on black pigment creates an all blue without the lacing when the combination found in Andalusian Blue Co/Ml/Pg is absent). Self-Blue may also be made with (3) Smoky (I^S), a very rare allele of the Dominant White locus which produces a pure breeding blue (pure breeding grey), is dominant to Dominant White, has no affect on red pigments so in theory according to Sigrid, could make purebreeding blue laced golds/reds.


Lavender (lav discovered in 1972 by Brumbaugh, autosomal recessive) will dilute both red and black pigments. Red will often become buff (orange red will become straw, beige) coloured and black will become grey (blue)...some birds with both red & black may become very whitish with hints of buffs and blues. I like to call both a black and red diluted lav/lav bird "Porcelain" (think MDF with lav/lav) and just red diluted lav/lav bird "Isabel" (red affected by lav/lav), and just a black diluted lav/lav bird "Self-Blue" or even "Lavender" could work (but could be confusing).

So that you understand, in the hobby named colours, Mille Fleur and Porcelain are exchanged back and forth for MEANING both a MDF with no lav/lav and a MDF with lav/lav...VERY confusing never mind throwing Isabel Porcelain in Germany means lav/lav plus MDF (Holland, UK, USA and Australia those genetics are for the hobby name "Porcelain") and the Germans call a MDF with NO lav/lav "Porcelain" (our Mille Fleur)...confused yet, you should be.

Blue dilution (Bl/bl"+") will dilute black pigments and leave the reds alone.


Same for Smoky (I^S), will dilute black pigments and leave the reds alone.



There are some uglies associated with the Lavender gene (lav) and this is the main reason why you don't see me with my Booted MDF Bantams having the Porcelain variety (MDF + lav/lav)...there is a stop feathering recessive gene close to lav and it may stop feather growth in the wings bows, tail, and shoulders. Chick down appears normal but when the adult feathers start coming in, the places mentioned, have some feathers that just stop and remain stub like and others grow a few centimeters long and stop growing forever. Sigrid warns one not to breed birds that exhibit this trait or continue to use the parents (even if normal feathered because they are both carriers of this recessive) as it is said to be a very persistent issue, once ingrained into a line.

Other similar problems with Lavender gene is wing patch and feather shredder. Jeffrey's wrote about this in 1985...feathers on the wing bow get stuck in a pin feather stage and dry up. Wing patch in inherited and sometimes hides to only show up in male chickens. Lavender Orps have issues with this feather shredder gene as do Lavender Partridge Brahmas. The softer the feather texture, the worse the expression. Sometimes long roo hackle feathers cover up the fault so judges don't see the problem. Lav Orps in the UK can have the shredder feather everywhere on them, especially on their backs (the vane does not have functioning hooks) and Sigrid mentions maybe it is another version of the gene fray (seen historically in some Rhodes--1938 Warren, imperfect feather webbing, recessive) and an Australian breeder seems to think some how red pigment is affected...wing patch like feathers but also on the hackle feathers.


Since I am a poop disturber of the composting kind (never poke at poo without having a good end use for it, eh)...here is a VERY interesting photo for those with an interest in Chanteclers...historically, Rhodes were used in this composite breed....so look hard please...you may even have seen this photo before....but have you really SEEN this photo...heh heh heh...

1926 Chantecler Coq - Abbey of Notre Dame de Lac in Quebec​

I know when I first saw it, I never SAW it until I started to look hard at it and studied it. Sure it bothered me the first time I looked at it, but I could never quite put my finger on the what was bothering me so much...what colour are the legs on this bird please (and I mean L00K--one person pointed this fault out to me...not sure it is the shadows or not but has me puzzled and suspicious), but my major concern is, what is going on with his tail feathers eh...shank colour in the Chants is to be yellow and those tail feathers are perhaps...hmmmm...FRAYED??? L00K, eh...look with educated eyes upon that bird and see what it has to tell you....the birds never lie.

1926 Chantecler Hen​

See how soft textured even the female from this 1926 set of photos is...see the lack of a top line, her tail, and her thigh feathers look way too poofy. Her legs DO sorta look to be properly coloured...not black ones we suspect. And what is with her stance? If she was a dog, I'd say she looks like she needs to pee...she looks terrible--all squatty. Might be a far nicer shape if they let her stand up, look a bit proud, not like the sky is about to fall in on her head.

Her comb look suspiciously like a rose comb with that pointed end on the top (and so does his, eh...should be more rectanglarish in shape).


So where was I before I meandered down Chantecler history lane...oh yeh...

Lavender genetics reduce the number of pigment granules (does not dilute the pigment's colour, reduces the number of pigment granules being expressed) by blocking them from entering the feathers but Blue dilution has the same amount of pigment as an undiluted black so blue dilution oxidizes black pigment to the grey colour but does not block the pigment from entering the feathers.


Now if'n you have to report back to someone, you can make them feel really out of touch by simply replying as to what the Self-Blue genetics do in that "Lavender reduces pigment" and "Blue Dilution in a Self-Blue (sans Co/Ml/Pg) oxidizes pigment"....leave them standing stunned, staring, and silent in the wings, eh!

Now did I give YOU enough differences between Lavender and Self-BOO to fill yer head full of fun things to puzzle on, Wisher?

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

I dont k now with chickens but I know with rabbits it caused a brittling and issue with the texture and other things on the lavender rabbits fur. My casual understanding is the lavender gene causes issues with brittle feathers and general feather health not quite up to snuff ? am I right in this thinking...would that there for cause the issue many of the lavender breeders are having with feathers in the lavender lines?


and makes me think of the one blue surprise that popped out thats showing barred blue patterning....

 

[CanuckBock]

Thank You!!! Tara, you just told me why my Lav. Ameraucana Roo's look a bit crappy in the tail.
Now on how to fix the problem?
Thanks Much!!
Scott

Before I would label your roo's tail an issue, I would allow him to moult it out and inspect the new growth. Winter can be rough on fowl and the tail feathers can get pretty ratty. Now if he still has issues where you see the feathers are not "knitting" together nicely (the hooks, web, all that stuff locks together nicely), then we can presume that maybe he has some issues linked to the lavender allele being that it is so close to the feather messing ones. Feather stop, Feather shredder lavender, wing patch and possibly some sorta fray like genes.

For simplicities sake, breed for birds you want. If you see a trait you do not like, when possible, choose ones that express what you want. It is that simple--put all the components you desire in the breeding pens and there is a better chance the perfect bird may one day appear!

Knowing that a trait is recessive makes when it shows up tell you not to use that bird as it will always pass on one dose to the kids. That is where knowing the genetics assists us in knowing that if a bird shows a trait that is recessive, that bird can only contribute something we may not want. DO NOT throw the baby out with the bath water though. If the roo has all the other things you love, as the breeder, you have to decide how important the ragged feathers are to your scale of must have's and hate's. If the one item was the roos ONLY fault, those kinds are rare and worth working on fixing. A female that has no feather issues mated to him will produce only offspring that don't have the issue, a hidden recessive from the Dad is in the progeny but if you never breed to other carriers or affecteds, it is not an issue you will ever see in the flesh and feathers.

A good case in point was when Andrè Auclair found what was left of the Partridge Albertans...he chose to take the duck footed and highly inbred lines and cross them to his own White Oka Chanteclers...the duck foot was an issue which can be every ingrained in a line if not addressed. He took a line that looked hopeless and bred life back into them; rescued something worth saving IMHO. Does duck foot float around in the strain, perhaps as Dr. Carefoot says it is probably recessive because it pops up from time to time in many show lines.

The more must have's you put in your breeding wants, the less likely you are to achieve ALL of them. Like specializing over being a jack of all trades. An example is often given where one thing is addressed over all others...say comb type. You can cull all day olds if comb type can be evaluated at hatch...the chances you achieve your goal of a good comb, no matter what you threw away in the process, are high if that is your sole criterion. You make faster progress towards your goals the less you wish for.

For many of us, the reality is we have quite a few wants. If a bad tail feather in a roo is something you despise, go for it. If you can live with it because the other attributes warrant it, only if you plan to exhibit in tough competition and the OFF item is not a total disqualification, what does it really matter?



Sigi lists in her Chicken Genetics book...Chapter Two all on Feathers...issues and just the inheritance genetics...from Silkie and henny feathered, to items like texture as in hard/soft feathers, to fray ragged, shredder, down in matted, ropy, sticky, then woolly, wiry, sunsuit, ragged wing, long philoplumes, feather growth, and gender linked slow feather. It makes you wonder how chickens ever get to be just normal feathered when you start poking things like feather genetics with a stick, eh.

Why do we care about things like twisted feathers (that one usually waits until the bird is in its second year to show itself and any that figure cockerels and pullets are good enough to use as breeders can begin banging their heads HARD against the barn wall...like NOW...when it shows up when the parents mature to reveal their true selves

)...

Why care about twisted feathers if you don't show your birds? Well for several reasons. Feathers not in the proper state are not good suits against extremes...of cold or hot, of rain, dust, or snows...a good coat of feathers provides a bird with protection and for anyone that provides FEED and HOUSING to birds, knows that a good doer is a pleasure, that culls that beef up quickly, put on flesh easy, and hens that lay lots of good eggs, these birds that have a good suit of feathers do it with less consumption of resources. Less costly inputs = more good outputs...easy keepers usually look good in their feathered protective outer wear. Raggedy, twisted feathers, incorrect type down (E as in Extended Black in the e-series, can have short down and inhibit the chick from busting outta the egg shell well)...it is more than cosmetic appearances when a chook does not have proper feathers on its body. If you have birds out free ranging, then things like wings with feathers that work for flying, even for a short flight outta danger, are valid wants.

One aspect some might not realize is that female chickens can expel the semen from males that have bred them, that they simply do not like. Yeh, she is THAT much in control of who sires her chicks. And if you think on that...good for her! She is the one that expels all the resources to make the eggs, build a clutch, choose a good spot where to incubate them, risks her very life doing so and then has to raise up the brood...if the kids are stupid and refuse to learn what she teaches them, her work is increased trying to keep the dumb ones alive. So she chooses who will contribute what she thinks is beneficial to the next generation, survival of the fittest and worth her efforts. SHE as the Mom, compromises herself to give to the next generation, so it makes total sense that she can pick and choose what she figures is the BEST choice she has in regards to the Dad. Little Red Hen...hee hee hee...

When a female regards a male chicken, she is checking him out for qualities she would prefer. If he is all messed up, not pretty, colourful and pristine, she would probably judge that in the negative seeing as that would be a good measure of his genetic "fitness" to survive thru all adversities...does he prosper where others look less than fit. He struts around showing off good pretty feathers, has attained good condition, gives her treats to show that he is a generous provider but able to survive on very little himself...a good doer, easy keeper. He keeps his rivals at bay with his crows to mark his territory. In the bird world, the male needs to impress the female and she gets to be very picky on who procreates more of themselves.

Another laughable fact is the RACK...hee hee Studies have been done to show that the female chicken prefers a big comb and wattles, she is impressed like a doe is impressed with a buck's rack of horns. His strength to show off that he can produce such a riotous almost waste of resources just to show off with. Now I do realize that combs will help regulate heat, that heat dissipates from the comb, but some of these head adornments are that and all that more, eh! Peacocks have such long cumbersome tails, showing off their fitness to survive against the odds...the long tail is a deterrent to his ability to escape predation, never mind his strutting about with virtual NEON lights going on flashing..."HERE I am...come EAT ME!"

Frizzles is a feather condition that can be on any breed of chicken and they have issues with being able to regulate their outdoor exposure, there are crested breeds like Polish that cannot SEE danger from above, and exhibition Silkies that are virtually blind because of all the Poof blocking their vision, the Sebastopol Goose cannot fly...feathers are a blessing to birds and sometimes what we choose to do to them, a curse too.

So feather expression IS a trait we as poultry breeders need to select for and maintain when we get what we prefer ...


So if Scott's lav male has fray or shredder or the wing patch thingy, know that it is recessive, so the male has to have a double dose of it to show it...he is pure for this not so much wanted condition. Both his parents are at the very least carriers of one allele for this unwanted (they can even look normal and that is the danger in the carriers, not known that the condition exists until it lines up in the progeny in its pure state) and should not be used if possible. The other siblings of this male are potential carriers of the trait too and it goes without saying that any progeny from this male are at the very least, carriers themselves.

Now, is this terrible...not so much. You can decide to never use the male that is pure for this issue but you can also, if he warrants it, cross him out to a line you know does not have it. Course because one dose is hidden, you run the risk that later down the line, it doubles up in some birds and happens again. It can plague a line forever is the theory and be a bit of a task to remove. It is like how Pea Comb and Blue Egg genetics are linked...lavender and these feather issues are said to be linked. It is not impossible to make single combed blue egg layers but breaking the LINK between the two traits (usually located close together, so inherited together is the simple way to explain it, one joined with the other so to speak) is often a challenge. Are there lines of lavender birds that don't have feather issues, sure...I am sure you can hunt some down and then go forward on them if that is what you desire.

I guess I look at feather issues as something I don't want to add to my chickens. So I avoided adding Porcelain Booteds to my lines. I can happily live without that variety because I figured I would want to stop any feather issues from propagating. Easier to avoid lavender and not have to deal with it, should the line I obtained have feather issues linked to the lav/lav.

Oh, no, not reprorting back to anyone. Just trying to get a general idea of color genetics for Ameraucanas.

I mentioned to you before that I have some Blue/Black Splash (cock) x Blue Wheaton (hen) crossed chicks that have some puzzling colors. Some look lavender in their fuzzy chick clothes, but are growing out white wing feathers. Others are looking decidedly Blue (darker head and wings, lighter grey body) and STRANGELY some look black, although I know that is not supposed to be possible. I think they may be dark blue when they feather out. All the interesting colors is making it really hard for me to advertise these chicks for sale, I want to see what happens!

I'm just trying to learn a little........

I had a chicken and ACDog friend here locally that had blue dilution and lavender chickens over in Australia. I was mildly interested but never paid alot of attention to the combination of both. They simply looked grey/blue to me...so blue dilution and lavender to my understanding produces a blue chook.

Blue Wyandotte on left, black on right - July 2014​

I can say that during my five year stint of trying to figure out what was UNDER the recessive White of our Bantam Wyandottes, I had some of what I thought started out as Silver Laced result in really being BLUE Laced. I had to take plucked feathers along and ask other people, "is this blue?"

Sometimes you luck out and you can SEE from right off, which one is blue, which one is black.​

These ones below were difficult to me at first.

​

Not only was I learning first hand about gender linked gold and silver but blue dilution was floating around in there too. The only true black bird is the one behind on the far right, eh.
The coloured parts of the barred/cuckoo expressions also continue to look similar, but you do a side by side comparison to a bird you figure is BLACK and you can see the colour is a shade lighter. I agreed that DARK BLUE is a blue and without blacks to compare to, confusing at times. What messes with my mind...is the Wys I have are based on eb Brown in the e-series, so the down is SLATE GREY...you can see this leaking up thru in these cocks...I know one is black and one is blue, but glance at the down being that it is GREY and it plays tricks on yer brain.

Black on left / Blue on right​

Blue on left / Black on right​

Seems easy eh...now L00K at the tails and you begin to go Hmmmm....I wonder...is that one really a black or...???

Black on left / Blue on right​

On a Blue bird...there can be leaking black too...so it messes with yer brain, eh.

BTW, the red markings on the wing bow and in the tail feathers, welcome to a nice well expressed show of what Autosomal RED can do to a black and white bird. LEAKY red. I personally find it pretty and don't give a ratz' butt because none of these Wys are of any known variety...just some yard birds and me playing with colours to learn about them. Eye candy pretty...not SOP compliant....so making MUTT VARIETIES, eh.

I dont k now with chickens but I know with rabbits it caused a brittling and issue with the texture and other things on the lavender rabbits fur. My casual understanding is the lavender gene causes issues with brittle feathers and general feather health not quite up to snuff ? am I right in this thinking...would that there for cause the issue many of the lavender breeders are having with feathers in the lavender lines?


and makes me think of the one blue surprise that popped out thats showing barred blue patterning....

Going from feathers to fur to fiber...it is like red is not displayed too well in sheep's wool but fine in llama's...there are similarities for sure along with differences.

I would expect that genetics like "lavender" in rabbits, it if is like feathers where it impedes/stops the pigment granules from entering the hair, sure could explain the brittleness and textures differences.

Dr. Crawford told me to go ahead and get a book by Roy Robinson. I forget if he was a student of Crawford's or a colleague. Colour Inheritance in Small Livestock. Chapter 9 is on rabbits. He talks about Lilac not Lavender and I would have to sit and read the chapter to see if he touches on any issues with brittleness and texture in the fur. He also mentions blue dilution (various blues with cream, grey, smoke) and Lilac fox. Basically I get the impression that black, blue, chocolate and lilac are the base four colours in combination with agouti (named after a South American rodent with banded hair...like in canines!) and other pattern items. In turkeys, there is a huge difference in Lilac and Lavender so I tread carefully thinking rabbit lilac = rabbit lavender!

I still figure we get confused into seeing blacks that may be dark blues as black or that the e-series eb Brown with its grey down colour is somehow blue (duh...grey is blue eh!).

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[CanuckBock]

Heel low:

Wisher...took a pic of those two chicks as of today.

Blue and Black...not like you would confuse these ones ... even as day olds


​

For the first day of spring, it was overcast and surprisingly damp...even tried to snow a bit.

Play time

​

Didn't stop Fixins from laying in what is left of the snow

​

Oh there it is...I see MUD on the red toy...so it must be spring!

​

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[CanuckBock]

Heel low:

There is just something about them boys...the roos, the singers and strutters, the tidbitters, crowers, nest site final choosers, wing flappers, and proudness.

I feel tragically sorry for anyone that resides where you cannot have a male chicken for your flock. There is something vitally missing from the equation. THE BOY is such an important part of the chicken experiences!

I guess I have been trained quite well...I sleep thru the roo-a-doo's singings, even the three thirty in the morning crowing matches the cockerels have. Located right outside our bedroom windows...open all year round for fresh air. Sleep thru the crowing because to me...there is nothing more perfectly correct than the sound of roosters crowing...even if it is pitch black outside. Hee hee...my whole life I have been raised with that sweet crowing sound...cock-a-doodle-do! My life would be empty without it. I expect I could not sleep if I did not have a roo a doo screaming their lungs out...something would be wrong...something would be MISSING!

Stoddard, 1878:

March 9, 2013 - Singing Brightly!​

​

Yes, I sleep...even thru this sing song...

​

Chantecler cockerel of the Sing Brightly Breed CROWING LOUD & PROUD!

​

Singing so piercing...it makes other roos shake their heads in utter pain...

​

Stares of disbelief...he is really LOUD and annoying, eh!

​

This one is not gonna stop..."Oh the pain, the ringing in my ears!"

​

"Holy Toledo...he is on a roll and won't quit already...Oh the SOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

​

This one is so LOUD he even causes other roos to...RUN AWAY!!!!

But to no avail though...

"FOUND YOU!!!"​

​

Thinks his ear drums are busted...in fact KNOWS his hearing is damaged...head hanging down..."AGH....!!!!"

Lots of behaviours in the fowl...all you gotta do is be observant...pay attention, listen, observe, put two and two together and you see the language of the chickens!

​

Pretty goofy eh...this behavior is the "Hi there, I mean you no harm" wing flap...hens do it too...

Chant female flapping her wings to say, "A-OK...all is well here!"​

Wing flapping is kinda like a signal like when a dog rolls over and shows you their belly...a non verbal communicator that we are at peace, enjoying the happiness and tranquility.

Far cry from a ruffled fluffed up hackle eh!

Not happy about being handled...ha ha ha...ruffly, eh? "Take us back to the heated facilities--NOW!"

Next addition in the mini series...the Wyandottes...

WYANDOTTES
​

Endersby (licensed judge), 1983:

Both Rick and I chose the Wyandottes together as a chicken breed we really liked! He fell in love with the Bantam White variety and me with any and all of the marked varieties...initially the Silver Laced Bantams is what we started with and all heck let loose from there.

​

The simple fact that the Whites hid both Silver AND Gold...gave us the opposite of the Silvers, the Golden Laced variety. Throw in the kitchen sink that the Whites had the Recessive White hiding Blue Dilution, Barring/Cuckoo and recessive blacks too. Well fine and dandy, slop the chooks, eh! It was like a FREE for ALL with a colour genetics junky like moi!

​

In my 2005 ABA SOP... I see the Wyandotte varieties listed that are recognized in the Bantams are: Barred, Birchen, Black, Black Breasted Red, Blue, Blue Red, Brown Red, Buff, Buff Columbian, Golden Laced, Lemon Blue, Partridge, Silver Laced, Silver Pencilled, Splash, White, and White Laced Red.

Day old Wyandotte chicks out and about on the grass ​

The varieties we have are White, Silver Laced, Golden Laced, and eye candy mixes of Barred/Cuckoo in blue, blacks, and partridge. Rainbows of potential fun!

Schilling, 1944​

The Silver Laced variety is believed to have originated from crosses of Spangled Hamburgs with Dark Brahmas and White Wyandottes were produced from sports out of Silver Laced Wyandottes. The Golden Laced variety is on many of the Rare Breeds' Lists.

Schilling always does such a nice air brushed photo...1944​

Wyandottes are hardy, clean basically all yellow legged (because they are mainly based on eb Brown, you CAN make a black bird with yellow legs--this visual contrast along with the red head gear is FAB!), fine winter birds with rose combs and smooth fitting plumage.

Many mysteries in Nature
Remain hidden I admit;
But the best time to set a hen
Is when she wants to sit.​

The females lay brown eggs, make great setty hens and both genders have a nice, sociable temperament.

To many of us, the Wyandotte L00Ks like chickens should look...very chookish basic chicken shape and well, all those colour varieties are just icing on the CAKE, eh!

Here is some good basic advice for ANY poultry breed...get a copy of the Standard for the breed and variety you are interested in and STUDY THAT...read the words quoted below...you don't need other people's OPINIONS and should be forming YOUR OWN ideals as this person advises. I am forever mystified how people meander along in this hobby, speaking outta their butts and have never even READ the worded description for the breed and variety of birds they seem to be EXPERTS on.

One other point I shall make about the advice below...whilst I agree that if you use one male in a pen of females that he is HALF THAT PEN, but if you are like some of us and do pair matings or have multiple males and multiple females (we usually have just as many boys as the girls, it is how we do things, eh), the male bird is half the pen to the female bird that is the other HALF if only TWO birds are used for breeding. The best for diversity and keeping your genetics in good health, by far, the rotation of MANY males thru a female flock--you can pedigree breed if you choose by setting the eggs after the first male is removed and when they are candling as clears (at around a week of incubation), you can add the new male and begin setting eggs the next day (eggs take about on average, 20 hours to make, so a new male's influence should begin to fertilize the female's eggs in a day or so). You do not have to do pair breedings but I keep hearing about people keeping ONE male for breeding purposes and that in itself is a bottle neck type mistake. At the very least, keep a sire and an heir...TWO males since as I mentioned above in my ditty about the boy chickens...the male rooster is the one that rushes in to danger to save the flock and the most likely to end up harmed for that behaviour. Otherwise, this is a good oldtimer read...directed AT Wyandotte bantams but just as useful for all poultry breeding approaches...I figure, eh.

Gies, 1950:

Day olds exhibiting the breed's rose combs
​

Interesting colour comparison of the two opposites in the S-series;
one hen is black with silver markings (S/-), one hen is black with gold markings (s"+"/-)

​

These males came out of the White variety...ton of colour and patterns...taught me what was UNDER the self-White (recessive white).

Some more males, note the red pigments...autosomal red expressions! Neato!

​

DARK Male on left has one dose of cuckoo/barring, LIGHT male on right has two doses of cuckoo/barring.

Left, two doses cuckoo / Right, one dose cuckoo​

Red pigments are from autosomal red and/or Silver/gold potentially too ...kewl eh!

Interesting five years spent breeding to find out what was under our White Wyandottes, eh. I love being able to have REAL live birds to photograph to explain concepts like gender lined Silver/gold, autosomal red, one dose barring/cuckoo versus two doses in males. Pictures make a world of difference to people learning about things. Wish all could have access to lots of breeding experiments in colours, but not always possible. So the photos seem to be working, eh.

​

Laced chest markings, barred hackle...autosomal red or S/s"+" showing up as red leakage in the hackle, wing bows, and saddle. Basically a colour variety MESS but he is PRETTY...hee hee...an abomination that is PRETTY! I learned SO much playing with my bantam Wyandottes about colour genetics. Always have a ton of interesting colourful birds in the yard.

​

These males are the ones that began our bantamizing project of the real blooded standard sized Chanteclers.

Cuckoo Partridge - Surfer Dude, one of the project Chantecler Bantams
​

I really doubt we could (or should) standardize a colour variety like Cuckoo Partridge...expression is so varied but never say never, someone may try!

This is Howard and the gang...some of our first bantam Wyandottes
​

Two Wy females in this group - self-White and Silver Laced​

Zeigler, 1982:

An inbred line of HEALTHY birds is not something to be terrified of. I suggest persons get three pairs from a reputable breeder and keep at least three males on the go for breeding purposes...that keeps up the diversity and for those with several varieties, another good suggestion is to cross varieties (not breeds...I myself rarely cross a breed unless for a specific purpose like making large Chants into bantam ones!) of similar foundations to give the strains a boost of hybrid vigour in a positive way. All strains will hit a point in time where inbreeding depression seems in play, if you can breed through this point instead of rushing out and getting new blood (and along with that, whatever may be bad in that line will come in with that new bird too); the birds produced will end up being even stronger for having pulled through this trial and test period.

​

For White birds (I often find the self-Whites a tad boring...yawn!), the Wyandottes sure are pretty, eh.

​

Wyandottes are about a shape that would fit inside a circle. Now mind you...we are not meaning a Cochin shape! I like to see Wyandottes with a back (medium in length and broad its entire length) Other breeds are shown above regarding proper shape comparisons...the Cochins have a short appearing back and Orps have a rather long back plus, I don't even figure how a Leghorn shape is comparable, back rather long and only moderately broad. Another factor I like to see in the Wys is a proper tail.

In the Wyandottes, I am an advocate of proper backs, tails, and feather type for the breed. I am not alone in my focus as one sees so many Wyandottes lacking in these three important features.


Because we have SO many lovely colour varieties, that should mean that you can focus on the correct Wy shape...sorta like how Old English Game breeders focus on shape because colour variety don't matter much to most of them because almost anything under the sun is chalked in there as a recognized variety, eh. Hee hee, ha ha...

​

Now here is a POSTER GIRL for Partridge variety (colour) BUT I do not like her shape...I admire the feathers on her thighs, the firm feather expression of the parti pattern, but don't think she is a good shape for a Wyandotte...each to their own, eh.

​

This one is outta the British SOP and look at those pantaloons...where are the laced markings? Bunch poofy softish FLUFF...Blah...and what is with the tail? There's like this divot there?

One of our Silver Laced Wyandotte bantam hen​

SEE the required patterned feathers on her thighs?? One needs to pay attention to the feather texture if'n you want a pattern to be expressed ALL over the chickens. Keep an eye on the feather texture expressions...the soft thigh feathers = no pattern expressed. I think the big old feather duster butts and thighs ruin a Wyandotte's smooth fitting feather appearance...my opinion of course! The SOP for the breed states the thigh is to be "well covered with smooth feathers."

2010 SOP APA, page 45:
White Wyandottes originated from sports of the Silver Laced variety, in New York State in 1887, and were admitted to the Standard in 1903. Texture of feather is important in Wyandottes especially so in the White variety, where broad feathers and smooth fitting plumage are necessary to preserve the characteristic curvilinear breed type of the true Wyandotte.

One note added note on the Wyandotte breed...because they have rose combs, and rose combs in the pure form have been studied and found to reduce the length of time that sperm lives (Jeffrey in 1981 says the world record for length of fertility in chicken egg fertility is suppose to be 33 days and average range is 10 days to 2 weeks with some as little as 2 to 3 days, but I know that ours here are on average three weeks)...often it is best to run ONE male with your females or if you do run two males and one happens to be impure for rose comb (he would look identical to a pure rose combed male!), there is the possibility that the impure male sires more offspring simply because his semen will live longer than his pure rose combed counter part in the hen's oviduct. Range in days is shown here...

Crawford & Smyth, Published in Poultry Science July, 1964, page 1021 - Comb Genotype and Fertility:

So note the results of this research...the impure rose combed males had fertility that lasted LONGER than even the pure single combed males (hybrid vigour of a heterozygous expression, eh)!

The impure rose combed males had fertility that lasted longer than pure rose combed males by more than TWICE as many days! Something to think about...should you start having Wyandotte babes appearing that possess a SINGLE comb...you mighten have a male in thar that is impure (he'd l00k like a pure rose combed male, eh) for rose comb! Wouldn't be the first time that phenotype hid the genotype of a simple recessive from a person.


NOW also keep in mind...two items may happen in Wyandottes; suddenly STUBS start showing up in the clean legs AND single combs (not rose combs) can happen...even in a line of generations of Wyandottes that are clean legged with pure rose combs. Sometimes, not too often thankfully, but sometimes mutations (hiccups) occur that have feathered legs happen in clean legged lines and single combs happen in rose combed lines. Don't get yer knickers in a knot, just don't use the offspring with single combs and/or the stubs and weed out their parents to not be using to make more from -- end of issue for a time!

Never rest on your laurels even if you have a pure line of rose comb and clean legged lines. Stuff happens, eh. Confounds the mind!

His tail feathers need to grow in further but as I have said, fer a boring to me, Self-White...they ARE a pretty colour combination!
​

Fitterer, 1962:

So dat be my bit on the Bantam Wyandotte breed.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

Edit to add research on pure rose combs versus impure rose combs and single combs.

 

[CanuckBock]

Heel low:

I love dispelling poultry myths...here are two fer you to gnash yer canines over...hatching eggs are cheaper than getting a good start in adult birds from a breeder AND acquiring hatching eggs is a safer way to get poultry "disease wise" than adult birds.

I quoted some authors from the 1980's in my last post and wish to address the optimism expressed by those Fanciers...bless their souls.

In the 1980's, there was alot of hope that heritage poultry would continue to thrive...even though standard (large fowl) kept was dropping in popularity compared to bantams kept for exhibition purposes...there was alot of good hope for the future of the Fancy continuing to be improved upon.

Now granted with the more recent development of super meat chickens (2005 being the most recent scientific alteration of the mush meats) or egg layers (swill eggers), times certainly have irreversibly changed from the 80's. I don't figure some of the optimist expressed, what 35 years ago, has transpired. The hope was as we became more scientifically orientated, the improvements in fowls' production could only be seen to be positive. Yes, now we do have breeds (hybrid creations) that produce amazing amounts of outputs in meat and eggs with minimal inputs, the original REALNESS of the chook has been lost somewhere along the way. The general ability for them to thrive and be healthful in natural conditions has been lost in commercialism and now has become more and more hinged upon the use of things like antibiotic feeds, artificial insemination, and artificially cleansed husbandry facilities to get them or their products to market before they up and crater. No one in the 80's would have been likely to predict how more prone to heart attacks and skeletons (busted legs) that cave in on themselves we would go with poultry.

Might be cynical of me but in the 45 years I have kept the birds, I see alot of changes from the early 80's when some of these quotes I just posted were written. Thankfully, if you hunt for good reference materials (and take the GENETIC advice with a grain of salt like one gender gives colour, one gender gives shape<--oh how I have laughed as I have seen written completely contradictory advice over which gender is suppose to do what), much of what is written in the 80's IS still good reference material. Time out on grass, fresh air, decent feed, clean water, no crowding, no predation, lessen the stress (happy birds = happy eggs and meat); you cannot go terribly wrong with alot of the advice given in the 80's by real fanciers and breeders in regards to heritage poultry husbandry. The birds were still real then.

What gets my feathers rubbed the wrong way is the current trend towards aspects like "lock down," hatching eggs or day olds from hatcheries are better than a "good start" with actual birds you can assess from breeders (dare you - past egg qualities, assess that hatching egg for the breeding birds it produces, eh!), that cockerels/pullets are used for breeding purposes to create hatching eggs for sale and shipping, that minimal numbers of birds are produced for selection of the next generation and the next without regard to selection of the top ten (if not three percent like we do) as breeding prospects. The decline of the quality in heritage fowl is happening.

You don't believe me on how systematically the quality of our heritage chickens is dropping...been on the decline for a looong time now...sigh. Jest have a lookit at these birds and tell me how wonderful the poultry was...some 100 years ago...sigh...ah my...what birds, eh....what birds!

GO here...article with photos of some Buff Leghorns that won FIVE times in a row...Best Pen in show at Madison Square Gardens...five times 1909-1913...and lookit the shape of the Leggies...magnificent don't even begin to capture how beautiful the shape of this breed was...then...Dan Honour has these lines and may he continue them.

BUFF LEGHORNS A SPECIALTY OF FORTY YEARS - Aviculture Europe
www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/11E05A04.pdf


Number of hatching eggs required to get you a trio worth breeding from...if shipped hatching eggs, best average expectations is that half will not hatch, so to get the top three percent for a prospective breeding trio that you will raise to age of an adult-hen/cock of one year of age (seven percent of all hatched day olds will expire, expected death rate in a good line of birds--not all birds hatched are hatched to be expected to survive to adulthood)...you need 214 hatching eggs shipped to you (I know...who is gonna have that many to ship but bear with my scenario, because this is what hatching eggs must be compared to when a good start of a trio of birds is compared to...apples compared to apples, eh). So half the shipped hatching eggs won't hatch, leaves you 107 day olds, 7% pass on before reaching adulthood, leaves you 100 grown out birds to select down to best TOP three as breeding prospects. 107 day olds - 7% mortality rate = 100 birds at 3% retention = one trio as breeding prospects.

What do hatching eggs sell for...two bucks a piece I will guess to suggest? So you ordered 214 hatching eggs (no idea the shipping on that gross) at two dollars each = $428 cost of hatching eggs plus estimate of what, $100 for shipping and packing (probably WAY wrong and too cheap cheep...dunno), so gives us, what round it to like $530 for hatching eggs to arrive at our place, usually fee to incubate a chick 21 days in an incubator is two bucks a hatched bird, half won't hatch, so 107 day olds x $2 to incubate = $214 plus hatching egg cost/shipping of $530 = $744 for 107 day olds...

How much you think it costs to feed day old to beginning of their second year of life (chick->pullet/cockerel->hen/cock 1 year old)...356 days at what feeding costs?

http://www.nutrenaworld.com/knowledge-center/poultry/how-much-does-a-chicken-eat/index.jsp:

:
Diseases Transmitted to Eggs

There are many infectious organisms that can be transferred from the hen to the egg that may cause the egg to die. In some cases, the infectious organism may infect the egg, yet the embryo may continue developing, and may even hatch, carrying the organism at hatch time. If an organism is passed from an infected hen directly into an egg, and then into the developing embryo, this is called vertical transmission. The term vertical transmission is also used to describe transmission of an infectious agent from a parent to an egg during fertilization, during egg development in the oviduct of the hen or immediately after oviposition. Once the egg is laid, some infectious organisms can pass through the eggshell upon contact with contaminated feces, urates or bedding. This is also considered vertical transmission if infection occurs immediately after laying. Some organisms are transmitted from the ovary to the egg, and this is called transovarian transmission. Infectious organisms harbored in the oviduct can also be passed into the egg prior to the shell being formed. Some organisms can infect eggs if contents from the cloaca contaminate the surface of the eggs, and then penetrate the egg. The other method of transmission of infectious organisms is by horizontal transmission. Some ways that horizontal transmission occurs are by preening, inhalation, copulation, insect or animal bites, ingestion, contact with contaminated equipment or fighting.

It seems obvious that prior to the egg membranes and shell being applied to it, the egg would be susceptible to infection by numerous infectious organisms. Even though the eggshell appears solid, it contains microscopic pores that can allow liquids and organisms of small enough size into the egg. The pores allow the transfer of gasses, as well.

Her article goes on to discuss diseases transferred in hatching eggs such as:

- Bacterial diseases like Chlamydia psittaci, Salmonella, Staphylococcus bacteria, and E. coli.
- Mycoplasma is a HUGE concern for poultry persons...this one is uncurable according to many here on BYC.
- Viral diseases like Newcastle's Disease, Herpesviruses, etc.
- Parasites like adult ascarids (roundworms) can even be passed on in hatching eggs.

Whilst this quote above is more an avian type based source for pet birds, Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P. is a very good resource since she is an exotic bird vet. Her explanation is educated, concise and easily understood. I have chosen this small quote as an example of her good advice...you may go to the link I have posted to read more should you wish to.


Some of the disease are zoonoses which simply means they are diseases that humans may get from animals...and birds. Chlamydia is one of those as are E. coli and Staph. Good hygiene is a great deterrent after being around any poultry and livestock...never mind the family dog or cat!

This is also a great source to have a read up on...

Common Poultry Diseases
University Of Florida IFAS Extension - Authors: G.D. Butcher, J.P. Jacob, and F.B. Mather

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/PS/PS04400.pdf


The most worrisome hatching egg disorder to me personally is the spread of the Chronic Respiratory Diseases. These are called stress diseases and are long, noxious, debilitating diseases that affect production of meat and eggs and generally make poultry like chickens and turkeys unthrifty and often quite a miserable existence for them; eating but not gaining weight, ruffled up and unhappy to say the least. While some may tout that these CRD problems are curable...I have yet to see any scientific proof to these claims and many of the supposed off label cures render the eggs produced unfit for human consumption and the bird itself should never be processed as food either. Personally, if I had to treat a bird (which thankfully, I have never had to do), I would solemnly vow never to eat its eggs, its meat or any of the production from the next generation it produced either. Might eat the F3's production perhaps...

I would only medicate a line of birds (Ampro is fine in turkey and chicken starters but never for waterfowl!) as a very last ditch effort to save the strain if it warranted such dramatic and drastic measures. I did not get birds to taint what they produce for my family with antibiotics and other unsavory and scary remedies. Factory farms might feed antibiotics to get their products to market, but we choose not to and want healthy good foods from our happy and healthy birds.


It is hardly any wonder why we bought our birds from breeders that also only retained top three percent for breeding prospects from lines that were kept and worked upon for literally decades--old line of old birds constantly worked upon at improving them. One needs that many for selection from if you are to begin to make and retain any improvements within a line of poultry. Jest because US humans decide some trait is desirable don't always mean the birds agree and will oblige us with our desires, eh. Murray raised up 290 birds to send us nine, Hughes always hatched out 300 White Wyandottes for three trios to show and breed from every single year for decades and he did the same with his Buff bantam Brahmas--300 hundred day olds to retain 9. The added bonus that true breeders are working on true breed type and decent variety expressions...that they naturally will select using years of experience, a well mated trio of birds for your good start. I simply cannot fathom how someone bothers with hatching eggs when you factor in the same quality of 3 percent kept back as potential breeders!

Interesting calculations, eh.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[scottcaddy]

Very interesting indeed!
Scott

 

[chickisoup]

Ok, looking for some thoughts/ comments. What do you think Tara?
http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Ch...ugh-earns-award-for-German-scientist-20150324




The Chicken Whisperer
37 mins ·
Chicken-sexing breakthrough earns award for German scientist. (Many people don't like the fact that live male chicks are discarded after hatch due to their uselessness. This scientist claims she has found a way to prevent this.)

​

Chicken sexing breakthrough earns award for German scientist
A breakthrough that will spare male baby chickens the chop after they hatch has won a German scientist a €30 000 prize for animal protection.
NEWS24.COM

 

[Amberjem]

ha funny tara I woke up thinking about breeder selection today and peeked in here and just saw your post was opening it up for discussion in dixie