Making Lemonade [Selective Culling Project - very long term]

[3KillerBs]

Just a thought...
How long has it been since you added new blood to your flock?

Birds can be bred to family members more closely than other species but after a while problems can arise. I've read one of the earliest signs can be viability and fertility problems.

Because of this many breeders produce 2 or 3 lines of birds. They select birds from each line to breed that are more distantly related, such as aunts, cousins, etc. This also helps them to reduce unwanted traits and improve wanted traits and avoid breeding depression.

Not saying this is your issue, just something to consider.

This is a good point.

I'm ready this year to add outside cockerels to my flock this fall because Rameses is breeding his granddaughters now.

Fertility is fine, but I'm leery of creating problems.

 

[NatJ]

Just a thought...
How long has it been since you added new blood to your flock?

Birds can be bred to family members more closely than other species but after a while problems can arise. I've read one of the earliest signs can be viability and fertility problems.

Because of this many breeders produce 2 or 3 lines of birds. They select birds from each line to breed that are more distantly related, such as aunts, cousins, etc. This also helps them to reduce unwanted traits and improve wanted traits and avoid breeding depression.

Not saying this is your issue, just something to consider.

That's a good point.

The most obvious check: if these eggs came from the same parents as previous batches, the genes are probably not an issue (so the incubator, or the egg handling, or the diet, or something else might be going on.)

But if these eggs are a generation later, or from a set of parents that are more closely related to each other, that might point at a genetic/inbreeding cause.

Or, since the biggest problem this time was infertile eggs and/or early quitters, it might be matter of how often the rooster mates with which hens, which would have an entirely different set of solutions than any of the other factors.

 

[NanaK]

This is a good point.

I'm ready this year to add outside cockerels to my flock this fall because Rameses is breeding his granddaughters now.

Fertility is fine, but I'm leery of creating problems.

Probably good idea.
You can separate birds into 2 or more flocks by marking them (leg or wing bands) but still house them together. Keeping a notebook will help too. This way you can continue to breed your best for several years and lock in the traits you need and get rid of bad traits.

*Disclaimer I' not a breeder.
Just a gal with a bunch of chickens that reads ALOT.
Where have I heard a similar phrase?

 

[NanaK]

I also have read some birds are just not compatible. Don't know how true that is? @NatJ

 

[NatJ]

I also have read some birds are just not compatible. Don't know how true that is? @NatJ

It is at least partly true.

At a very basic level, it is easy to demonstrate. If you breed two chickens with the ear tuft gene (Araucana) or the short legs gene (Japanese Bantam or Dorking), then 1/4 of their chicks will die before hatching. For the short legs, you could breed one Japanese Bantam to one Dorking and still get that result, even though the parents are thoroughly unrelated to each other. Or breed two Frizzles and get 1/4 of chicks being Frazzle with poor feathers and health problems.

On the other hand, some birds pair very well together. For example, if you want blue chickens, breeding a splash to a black will give you 100% blues. Or breeding chickens that are pure for the rose comb gene will give you chicks with rose combs, while breeding chickens that carry the recessive not-rose gene will give you some single combs (bad if you wanted rose combs, good if you wanted singles.)

I'm pretty sure Stormcrow doesn't have ear tufts, short legs, or frizzles, and is not trying to produce blues or rose combs. I just picked those genes because they are fairly well known examples of certain effects. But there are almost certainly other genes that do similar things when you cross one set of parents vs. another, that have good or bad effects on health, or on body shape, or laying ability, or on the colors & patterns that are wanted.

 

[NanaK]

It is at least partly true.

At a very basic level, it is easy to demonstrate. If you breed two chickens with the ear tuft gene (Araucana) or the short legs gene (Japanese Bantam or Dorking), then 1/4 of their chicks will die before hatching. For the short legs, you could breed one Japanese Bantam to one Dorking and still get that result, even though the parents are thoroughly unrelated to each other. Or breed two Frizzles and get 1/4 of chicks being Frazzle with poor feathers and health problems.

On the other hand, some birds pair very well together. For example, if you want blue chickens, breeding a splash to a black will give you 100% blues. Or breeding chickens that are pure for the rose comb gene will give you chicks with rose combs, while breeding chickens that carry the recessive not-rose gene will give you some single combs (bad if you wanted rose combs, good if you wanted singles.)

I'm pretty sure Stormcrow doesn't have ear tufts, short legs, or frizzles, and is not trying to produce blues or rose combs. I just picked those genes because they are fairly well known examples of certain effects. But there are almost certainly other genes that do similar things when you cross one set of parents vs. another, that have good or bad effects on health, or on body shape, or laying ability, or on the colors & patterns that are wanted.

Thank you for that explanation.

 

[3KillerBs]

You can separate birds into 2 or more flocks by marking them (leg or wing bands) but still house them together. Keeping a notebook will help too. This way you can continue to breed your best for several years and lock in the traits you need and get rid of bad traits.

At the moment, at least, I have no ability to separate out flocks for breeding.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Nor I.

I had PLENTY of hens of diverse genetics - my bottleneck was starting with a single Roo. My five current breeders are his grandchildren. I didn't expect that would be an issue so quickly. Fresh genes were on the list for NEXT year at the earliest.

Still thinking the error is probably mine in gathering and handling the eggs for incubation - going to try the bleach water solution next time, see if that improves things. Well, that and that I have older Comets, who aren't known for reproductive health in their third year, and "Rainbows" which look a lot like large Comets with some NHR in them.

That said, its not a "No" - its a plausible theory, anyways. Just not one I can quickly or easily test.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

My phoenix are to the point where I have to introduce new blood if I want an assurance that I'll have a decent crop of young adults next year (hence my Moony eggs I bought, they're close enough for my goals). Mine are far more inbred than yours however. My initial quad from 6 or so years ago were already likely related in some degree, and I've kept and bred that male to his daughters (and grad, great grand, ect....) up until literally last winter.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

My phoenix are to the point where I have to introduce new blood if I want an assurance that I'll have a decent crop of young adults next year (hence my Moony eggs I bought, they're close enough for my goals). Mine are far more inbred than yours however. My initial quad from 6 or so years ago were already likely related in some degree, and I've kept and bred that male to his daughters (and grad, great grand, ect....) up until literally last winter.

^ is why I thought I'd be adding new genes year 5 at the earliest, since I was starting with multple breeds, plus several varieties of mutt. and why i continue to believe it most likely that something I (or the incubator, or both) am doing is the primary fault - but likely I.

Which should be a caution to those who come to BYC and look in me as sort of an expert on anything. Still LOTS to learn even in the very practical, before I get to the "nice to know" stuff.