Naked Neck/Turken Thread

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote: Ow!!!!! My brain!!!!!

 

[Kev]

I do get that F1 chicks will all be black - what would be the best avenue to get the lav/lav Alohas (lavender/buff mottling), then? F1xF1? I assume line breeding with dad will just give you more black, though it will afford 50% with lav/lav.... But then what...

(I am really getting to too many males already, so I'm trying to keep the numbers of males around limited. Not ideal for breeding options, but I don't want to get shut down for a noise complaint, either. We are allowed roosters, but I don't want to be the reason they are banned later due to them being a nuisance, of course!!!!)

Too bad I don't have a big farm.

- Ant Farm

I've been thinking of what would be the shortest route and needing the least number of birds.. it is hard. The more specific genes one wants in a single animal, the bigger the challenge is. It's do-able but the total recessive nature of lavender- zero hint on carriers, unlike some mottle carriers giving hints of their carrier status....

Early thoughts:

-Breed the F1 back to aloha. Reason for this, getting higher numbers of non-black birds. This will get the black out of the gene pool straight away, but it will be a total gamble to pick out which birds might be lav carriers.

This also will give half mottled birds, so in theory, you could pick out black tail mottled cockerel(s) and pullets and again in theory, there is a fair chance of porcelains out of this. The problem is if you pick only one cockerel, there is only a 50% chance he is a lav carrier. If he is not, then none of the chicks will be porcelain even if one or more of pullets are carriers. But if you are lucky and he is a carrier then there is a pretty good chance of porcelains if say, 5-6 pullets are kept, improving the chances of a lavender carrier amongst them. Personally I would feel better picking out 2 cockerels and 6-8 pullets and group breed them, fingers crossed. I understand the rooster noise concern and managing too many chickens.. perhaps cull the group down or completely if you happen to get a bunch of porcelain chicks?

-F1 x F1 will give 75% blacks, with 25% being pure for black, and small numbers (25%ish) of: black mottle, solid lavenders(most will be leaky), black tail buffs(probably with extra black details on them instead of rather clean body color), possibly black tail whites(if lav roo is silver).... and in very small numbers: lavender mottle, lavender black tail buff, lavender black tail whites(white bird with lavender tail and neck), very low probability: porcelain(lavender mottled black tail buff) and lavender black tail white with mottle.

Going this route, it would be best to hatch huge numbers- 50+ is good, 100+ even better. Other issues: might be most of the birds are too skinny/slow maturing for practical meat purposes. If this is important, then perhaps breed mottle and lavender into say, the SG stock and then set up breeding to increase the chance of lavender and mottle showing up while maintaining dual purpose/broiler type. Porcelain would have to remain an bit longer term project this way, though. Other possibilities: maintain a separate porcelain goal line, then breed a porcelain with say, a SG bird.... you could then breed the F1 together from this, breeding for porcelain from this would be so much easier than starting from scratch.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote:

I do get that F1 chicks will all be black - what would be the best avenue to get the lav/lav Alohas (lavender/buff mottling), then? F1xF1? I assume line breeding with dad will just give you more black, though it will afford 50% with lav/lav.... But then what...

(I am really getting to too many males already, so I'm trying to keep the numbers of males around limited. Not ideal for breeding options, but I don't want to get shut down for a noise complaint, either. We are allowed roosters, but I don't want to be the reason they are banned later due to them being a nuisance, of course!!!!)

Too bad I don't have a big farm.

- Ant Farm

I've been thinking of what would be the shortest route and needing the least number of birds.. it is hard. The more specific genes one wants in a single animal, the bigger the challenge is. It's do-able but the total recessive nature of lavender- zero hint on carriers, unlike some mottle carriers giving hints of their carrier status....

Early thoughts:

-Breed the F1 back to aloha. Reason for this, getting higher numbers of non-black birds. This will get the black out of the gene pool straight away, but it will be a total gamble to pick out which birds might be lav carriers.

This also will give half mottled birds, so in theory, you could pick out black tail mottled cockerel(s) and pullets and again in theory, there is a fair chance of porcelains out of this. The problem is if you pick only one cockerel, there is only a 50% chance he is a lav carrier. If he is not, then none of the chicks will be porcelain even if one or more of pullets are carriers. But if you are lucky and he is a carrier then there is a pretty good chance of porcelains if say, 5-6 pullets are kept, improving the chances of a lavender carrier amongst them. Personally I would feel better picking out 2 cockerels and 6-8 pullets and group breed them, fingers crossed. I understand the rooster noise concern and managing too many chickens.. perhaps cull the group down or completely if you happen to get a bunch of porcelain chicks?

-F1 x F1 will give 75% blacks, with 25% being pure for black, and small numbers (25%ish) of: black mottle, solid lavenders(most will be leaky), black tail buffs(probably with extra black details on them instead of rather clean body color), possibly black tail whites(if lav roo is silver).... and in very small numbers: lavender mottle, lavender black tail buff, lavender black tail whites(white bird with lavender tail and neck), very low probability: porcelain(lavender mottled black tail buff) and lavender black tail white with mottle.

Going this route, it would be best to hatch huge numbers- 50+ is good, 100+ even better. Other issues: might be most of the birds are too skinny/slow maturing for practical meat purposes. If this is important, then perhaps breed mottle and lavender into say, the SG stock and then set up breeding to increase the chance of lavender and mottle showing up while maintaining dual purpose/broiler type. Porcelain would have to remain an bit longer term project this way, though. Other possibilities: maintain a separate porcelain goal line, then breed a porcelain with say, a SG bird.... you could then breed the F1 together from this, breeding for porcelain from this would be so much easier than starting from scratch.

Oooowwwwwwwww!!!!!! Brain!!!! Hurts!!!!

In all seriousness, this is helpful, thanks. I'm going through different options for homing the pullets I get this spring, and was wondering of the options if some of the Alohas got placed with Goodwin and his group for the bulk of the year. I definitely am NOT interested in yet another big project (esp. one that would need lots of chicks hatched). But it might be fun to do small numbers of some crosses just to see what shows up (since I'll be keeping good records anyway - I'll know who's got a chance of being a lav carrier and who doesn't, for instance.)

It all depends on pullet numbers I get. Goodwin is fine sized, but no meat bird - any crosses with him would be made in a side attempt to get the Blue egg gene into some of the NNs. I was wondering what would lead to the most interesting and varied possible babies, S&G (buff black tail) or Aloha crossed with him.

I think I need to read this and the other emails are more times. Just moving the chess pieces around in my brain...

- Ant Farm

 

[draye]

@Fire Ant Farm
It all makes my head spin too. There are so many projects I'd like to do also. All these neat colored chicks are popping out and it makes me want to do another project.

I think what I'll do for now is group the individual gen lines together ( mother-daughters-granddaughters) as a breeding group and put the best possible matched rooster in with them. My main problem is that I have 10 hen lines and only 7 runs to out them in.

So my thinking is that I do 3 to 4 hatched each year, so I'll cut the runs back to 5 maybe at a time and use the other runs as holder pens until their time for breeding and hatching comes around.

I'll try to find enough different colored bands and band the legs of each hen line and work my way from there.

Maybe later I can do individual breeding for special colors.

Just thoughts floating around in my head.

 

[alohachickens]

Oooowwwwwwwww!!!!!! Brain!!!! Hurts!!!!

In all seriousness, this is helpful, thanks. I'm going through different options for homing the pullets I get this spring, and was wondering of the options if some of the Alohas got placed with Goodwin and his group for the bulk of the year. I definitely am NOT interested in yet another big project (esp. one that would need lots of chicks hatched). But it might be fun to do small numbers of some crosses just to see what shows up (since I'll be keeping good records anyway - I'll know who's got a chance of being a lav carrier and who doesn't, for instance.)

It all depends on pullet numbers I get. Goodwin is fine sized, but no meat bird - any crosses with him would be made in a side attempt to get the Blue egg gene into some of the NNs. I was wondering what would lead to the most interesting and varied possible babies, S&G (buff black tail) or Aloha crossed with him.

I think I need to read this and the other emails are more times. Just moving the chess pieces around in my brain...

- Ant Farm

Being as I have already done 3+ years of intensive work to do something similar to Porcelain, you could also just work on making really awesome Dun Mille Turkens by working with what I have here.

I have all the "ingredients" you would need to make really AWESOME birds.

It would be most helpful to have someone work on that.

And may I point out that as rare as the Lavender gene is, I think that the Dun gene in birds is even more rare in Standard fowl? (Generally it's seen in Polish and Seramas.)

We already have Laverder Orps, Lavender Mottled Orps and Lavender Ameraucanas - but no Dun anything in those "big guys".

 

[GabrielBane]

*pops out of lurking* I 100% agree about Dun, I personally find it more visually appealing, albeit the genetics confuse me~

 

[Kev]

In all seriousness, this is helpful, thanks. I'm going through different options for homing the pullets I get this spring, and was wondering of the options if some of the Alohas got placed with Goodwin and his group for the bulk of the year. I definitely am NOT interested in yet another big project (esp. one that would need lots of chicks hatched). But it might be fun to do small numbers of some crosses just to see what shows up (since I'll be keeping good records anyway - I'll know who's got a chance of being a lav carrier and who doesn't, for instance.)

It all depends on pullet numbers I get. Goodwin is fine sized, but no meat bird - any crosses with him would be made in a side attempt to get the Blue egg gene into some of the NNs. I was wondering what would lead to the most interesting and varied possible babies, S&G (buff black tail) or Aloha crossed with him.

I think I need to read this and the other emails are more times. Just moving the chess pieces around in my brain...

- Ant Farm

Goodwin x SG introduces: black, lavender, possibly silver. Possible combinations: solid lavender(most will be leaky), Isabel(pastel buff with lavender grey tail), lavender tailed whites, black tail whites along blacks, black tail buffs. The weights/production should be easy to maintain/select for.

Goodwin x aloha, essentially the same plus mottle and possibly dun if it shows up. If none of the chicks hatch out NN then this will not throw any NN.

 

[Kev]

*pops out of lurking* I 100% agree about Dun, I personally find it more visually appealing, albeit the genetics confuse me~

It works much like the blue gene- black/blue/splash.

It has problems with bad naming habits.. the same dun gene is called fawn, chocolate(despite another sex linked gene also being chocolate...), khaki etc.

It also varies a bit in color.. some duns look rather like some shades of blue chickens.

 

[Carole AM]

If anyone will have eggs in the spring, please let me know! I'm in Indiana.

 

[alohachickens]

It works much like the blue gene- black/blue/splash.

It has problems with bad naming habits.. the same dun gene is called fawn, chocolate(despite another sex linked gene also being chocolate...), khaki etc.

It also varies a bit in color.. some duns look rather like some shades of blue chickens.

And Kev, I'm thinking that when Khaki appears, it will make this look like the bold "Buff Mottled" color that I was trying to get when crossing to Buff Orps - because the grayish Dun areas would be pale Khaki - and the black tail feathers would also be pale Khaki - so the entire chicken would appear to be Buff and White mottled, with absolutely no black, but that would be just visually, as the chicken would genetically be Mille - gold, black and white - but with two copies of the Dun gene.

My thought is that way I could have one pen of Dun Mille Alohas, and if I kept a Dun rooster over Dun Mille Hens and Regular Mille Hens, I would get three colors of chicks - regular Mille in buff, and black with white spots, Dun Millie in buff and dun with white spots, and what may look like Buff Mottled - but would actually be Khaki Millie!

Because my space for breeding pens is very limited, this would allow three colors out of basically one pen - and I wouldn't have to worry about "keeping track" of Lavender carriers or worry about Splash.

But since we haven't seen Khaki Mottled yet, verdict is still out on how that will look! I don't know if it will be a cool effect or just kind of "meh"?