Need help pale chicks

[andreanar]

Only thing I can think of is Mareks, the way you describe some being paralyzed and then sometimes getting better. Since you used Corid for so long, I think you should replace their b vitamins. Maybe Nutri Drench.

 

[Chicken raiser393993]

I am really sorry you are having such a hard time!
First off: Paralysis is not part of the symptoms of worm overload or coccidiosis so you are dealing with something else.
Why do you think you can exclude Marek's? It seems like that is very likely.

Corrid is given in a 5 day course. Giving it longer is useless and deprives the chickens of the b vitamins they need. Also, electrolytes are for chickens suffering from dehydration. If you are talking about an electrolytes/vitamin mix, that is not to be given at the same time as Corrid as it counteracts that medicine. You give vitamins (b vitamins in particular) *after* the five day course of corrid, because you have just been depriving their bodies of that vitamin for 5 days in order to weaken the cocci.
I am writing this for future reference and for others, as I really doubt your troubles have anything to do with coccidiosis. But when you buy and use medication always make sure to read the instructions carefully and follow them - otherwise you are just wasting your money and risking the health of your chickens...
Keeping chickens in cages is a recipe for all kinds of trouble. I realize that you only started doing this after some got sick, but you are not helping the issue and inviting additional trouble instead.
Are you giving them grit? While free ranging they could find their own, but put up in a cage you will have to supplement granit grit (not just oystershell or other calcium source) so they can properly digest their feed.
Do not feed corn in addition to a complete chicken feed, they will end up not getting enough protein overall, especially if you also feed fruit. Why feed starter and layer?? It's either, or. Starter is fine to feed forever if you give extra oyster shell free choice on the side. Do not feed layer feed to pullets before lay or to roosters, there's too much calcium in it and that will harm their kidneys over time.
If I were you I'd pick a good quality grower or all flock feed, offer oyster shell on the side and feed nothing else until everyone is better.
Read up on Marek's and evaluate again if that could be the problem...

Im telling you it's not mareks. If it were mareks they would have all died within the first couple months. This has to be some new diseases or a combination of diseases.

Im not an expert but I've seen my chickens symptoms and it's not anything 'simple like everyone is saying. It's not simply mareks,( I wish it could be that way I would at least know something).

I think a couple of mine had cocccidiosis, because they did have the exact symptoms. But I think it was this with a combination of something else, because after the 5 days of corrid, there were no more pooping blood.

Its not worms, because I've had them dewormed.

A few of them had love, but I got rid of them and the chickens stayed with disease.

Unfortunately for me even if my chickens conquer the disease, it will be too late, because they wont grow anymore.

This is for the future chicks, I need to know what this disease is so that my next generations will not have the same problems

Ps: I've been giving them unfiltered water from around the same time that the disease started, could this have any corralation with the disease?

I just noticed that their water was unfiltered, I'm giving them filtered water now.

 

[Stephine]

Im telling you it's not mareks. If it were mareks they would have all died within the first couple months. This has to be some new diseases or a combination of diseases.

Im not an expert but I've seen my chickens symptoms and it's not anything 'simple like everyone is saying. It's not simply mareks,( I wish it could be that way I would at least know something).

I think a couple of mine had cocccidiosis, because they did have the exact symptoms. But I think it was this with a combination of something else, because after the 5 days of corrid, there were no more pooping blood.

Its not worms, because I've had them dewormed.

A few of them had love, but I got rid of them and the chickens stayed with disease.

Unfortunately for me even if my chickens conquer the disease, it will be too late, because they wont grow anymore.

This is for the future chicks, I need to know what this disease is so that my next generations will not have the same problems

Ps: I've been giving them unfiltered water from around the same time that the disease started, could this have any corralation with the disease?

I just noticed that their water was unfiltered, I'm giving them filtered water now.

Marek's does not kill all birds. If you are basing your decision that it can't be Marek's on that, you are mistaken.

As far as the water is concerned - what is your source? I assume a private well - have you gotten a well report lately? It could be contaminated with all kinds of toxins, chemical or biological. What are you filtering out for your filtered water?

We here have naturally occurring arsenic in the well water, so my chickens (because they are small and because we eat their eggs) get reverse osmosis filtered water.

 

[rebrascora]

I would second what Stephanie has said. It still sounds like a pretty classic Marek's outbreak. Some birds get paralysis which slowly deteriorates, some get sudden dramatic paralysis and recover after a few days but may have more severe attacks a few months later (even a year or more later and be perfectly healthy in between) or just waste and die. Others get coccidiosis or respiratory infections because the Marek's virus has compromised their immune system. Lice are opportunist parasites and flourish on sick birds, so they are a symptom of the bird being ill because it is no longer well enough to dust bath and care for itself, rather than the lice themselves causing illness.
With Marek's there are no hard and fast rules, but all the things you have described are very characteristic of it. I speak from experience of dealing with the exact same symptoms you are describing.
As regards water not being filtered, free range chickens will often drink from the filthiest puddles and still be fine, so unless there is something seriously toxic in your water I think you are worrying needlessly about it being filtered. I use mostly rainwater from my water butts for the chickens. Sometimes it is turning green with algae, but they have no problem with it.

 

[Chicken raiser393993]

I'll tell you guys why I believe it's not mareks, so that you guys can help me find out what it really is:
1. The paralysis for mareks is different then what I am experiencing. In mareks, chickens do a 'split' in most cases, while in my case it is only one leg that goes bad.
In mareks there is no description of chickens being completely healthy one day and then complete paralysis the next. This happened to me a few times, the chicken just looked dead, of how paralyzed it was, then 2 days later of me shoving food and water down their throats, they were up like nothing ever happened.

2. When describing mareks most people are thinking of full grown hens that lay eggs, mine are 3-5 months old when they get the disease. And no full grown hen has gotten this disease For me

3. In mareks there is no mention of skinnyness and bonyness, which is the main part of my chickens disease.

4. A main symptom of mareks is their neck twisting. The neck twist has not happened to my chickens. (Only when they are just about to die do they twist their neck in such a way which is normal for anything that dies)

5. My chickens disease stops them from growing, in fact I would go as far as to say that it shrinks them, because I had a 10 month rooster go from crowing and being huge, to shoveling up smaller than the average 4 month stag. Also my chickens crests shrivel up and shrink when they have this disease.
(Yes really it happens, I thought that the 10 month old had cut his comb somehow but it was just shrunken)

6. There's no unusual bumps on their skin, nothing wrong with their eyeballs, no wing paralysis.
They do not lose appetite, but they dont gain weight. Honestly the main part is that my young chickens are extremely skinny and dont grow out of it. The paralysis is rare on mine and is not the main symptom.

If someone can prove me wrong and tell me exactly what form of mareks it is then I would appreciate it, tgat way I won't waste my time and I would just cull them since there is no cure.

If not then someone help me find what this is. The main issue is that they are skeleton skinny. Thanks

 

[Stephine]

I give up. I feel like we have given you a lot of useful information that you seem to ignore or not mention that you made the changes and asked a lot of questions that you don't answer.
Look into their feed, feed a commercial grower feed and make sure it is fresh.
Get the well tested, for your own safety as well as the health of the birds and filter as needed.
Get the book "chicken Health" and read through it, see if anything looks like it's it, including Marek's (those explanations you give for why it can't be Marek's are inaccurate).
And finally: Send your next dead chicken in for necropsy!
Good luck.

 

[BYC910]

Have your vet or your state department of agriculture do a full necropsy . It's the only way your going to get the answer you seek . Chickens can be infected with more than one disease at once . I have had something similar to what you describe and their were lesions in the intestines . Plus the chickens tested positive for at least four infectious disease's . No way to determine how many of the positives were false from natural antibodies . Like I said do a necropsy it's the only way to know for sure .

 

[rebrascora]

Your knowledge of Marek's is totally incorrect. Have you actually read any of my previous posts on this thread?? The symptoms you are describing are exactly Marek's and I should know because I've been dealing with it for 3 years.
Going through your list....
1. In my experience most chickens with it don't do the splits although I have had a couple that did. I have documented many times on this forum how a chicken with Marek's has suddenly been significantly lame for a few days, even a couple of weeks, and then almost as suddenly come right and been totally fine for as long as a year afterwards. Many times it has come on suddenly and they were fine one moment and floundering on the ground unable to get up the next, so I can assure you that it can come on that suddenly.

2. Marek's affects mostly juvenile birds, so I have no idea where you got the information from that it affects adults. The prime time is from 8 weeks to 20 weeks. Adult birds can get it but it is unusual and more often a secondary outbreak where the virus has just been dormant..... so your birds that are recovering may have an outbreak in a year's time when they are adults. The vast majority of Marek's cases occur during adolescence.

3. Marek's causes muscle wasting. It is one of the classic Marek's symptoms, so yes the birds with it will be skinny even though they eat well.

4. I've had the occasional one with neck twisting (and wry tail) but like you describe, it has been towards the end where they were dying. Most have not shown this trait.

5. Failure to thrive, they stop growing or lose condition is the same as point No.3. Often it is caused by tumours in the body. The comb (you describe it as a crest) is an indicator of the health of a chicken. It will be large red and fleshy when they are healthy and in prime mating condition and pale and shrivelled or discoloured if they are moulting or sick.

6. My Marek's birds have not shown any skin lesions or ocular irregularities either, but I can assure you they still have Marek's. I've had the odd one with wing paralysis but it is not a common symptom, so not surprising that you haven't seen that.

Marek's can have many different symptoms. As well as the more common ones like paralysis and wasting/failure to thrive, it also compromises the immune system, so that birds infected with it are more prone to things like coccidiosis and respiratory and digestive tract infections that their bodies would normally have immunity to or fight off.

As others have said, get a necropsy done on the next one that dies or if you are in the UK, there are vets offering faecal testing for it..... you may even be able to send a sample in the post. I'm not sure how the faecal testing works yet or how accurate it is, but I've read a couple of references to it recently.

From the symptoms you are describing, I am very confident that your flock has Marek's. It matches almost exactly the symptoms I see in my flock.
If it is any consolation, after the initial outbreak in the first year, things seem to settle down a bit after that and you just get the odd one or two in subsequent years. At least that is my experience.

 

[Chicken raiser393993]

Thank you everyone for your responses. If I sound unappreciative , I apologize because I honestly appreciate all the information I could get.

Its just that when you finally get your flock to be perfect and something like this happens it gets stressful and hopeless. I have fought hawks by keeping my chickens secured in huge cages I built. I fought raccoons and foxes by digging the cages a few feet into the ground. I have destroyed all other diseases by using naturally acidic things like garlic and lemon.
But this thing is horrible and incurable by the looks of it.
Again I appreciate all the feedback, which is why I have tried the things you guys have told me. Thank you

 

[Chicken raiser393993]

Your knowledge of Marek's is totally incorrect. Have you actually read any of my previous posts on this thread?? The symptoms you are describing are exactly Marek's and I should know because I've been dealing with it for 3 years.
Going through your list....
1. In my experience most chickens with it don't do the splits although I have had a couple that did. I have documented many times on this forum how a chicken with Marek's has suddenly been significantly lame for a few days, even a couple of weeks, and then almost as suddenly come right and been totally fine for as long as a year afterwards. Many times it has come on suddenly and they were fine one moment and floundering on the ground unable to get up the next, so I can assure you that it can come on that suddenly.

2. Marek's affects mostly juvenile birds, so I have no idea where you got the information from that it affects adults. The prime time is from 8 weeks to 20 weeks. Adult birds can get it but it is unusual and more often a secondary outbreak where the virus has just been dormant..... so your birds that are recovering may have an outbreak in a year's time when they are adults. The vast majority of Marek's cases occur during adolescence.

3. Marek's causes muscle wasting. It is one of the classic Marek's symptoms, so yes the birds with it will be skinny even though they eat well.

4. I've had the occasional one with neck twisting (and wry tail) but like you describe, it has been towards the end where they were dying. Most have not shown this trait.

5. Failure to thrive, they stop growing or lose condition is the same as point No.3. Often it is caused by tumours in the body. The comb (you describe it as a crest) is an indicator of the health of a chicken. It will be large red and fleshy when they are healthy and in prime mating condition and pale and shrivelled or discoloured if they are moulting or sick.

6. My Marek's birds have not shown any skin lesions or ocular irregularities either, but I can assure you they still have Marek's. I've had the odd one with wing paralysis but it is not a common symptom, so not surprising that you haven't seen that.

Marek's can have many different symptoms. As well as the more common ones like paralysis and wasting/failure to thrive, it also compromises the immune system, so that birds infected with it are more prone to things like coccidiosis and respiratory and digestive tract infections that their bodies would normally have immunity to or fight off.

As others have said, get a necropsy done on the next one that dies or if you are in the UK, there are vets offering faecal testing for it..... you may even be able to send a sample in the post. I'm not sure how the faecal testing works yet or how accurate it is, but I've read a couple of references to it recently.

From the symptoms you are describing, I am very confident that your flock has Marek's. It matches almost exactly the symptoms I see in my flock.
If it is any consolation, after the initial outbreak in the first year, things seem to settle down a bit after that and you just get the odd one or two in subsequent years. At least that is my experience.

Well, thank you for the bad news. No seriously thank you. Now I know that my chickens have mareks, the disease I've been denying for a while.
It doesn't sound like you have had much success with this mareks disease. Therefore I'll just cull the whole flock. I spent years breeding, and just recently got exactly what I wanted from my chickens, but they all got mareks.
I'll have to get a veterinarians input as well, but it looks like I'll have to start over.
Thank you for sharing your experience