Same old question, new thread. Sustainable Alternative to Cornish Cross?

[RiverOtter]

Have you tried this cross the other way, with Leghorn hens and a dual purpose rooster? I wonder if it would produce similar results with the added bonus of a lot more eggs from the breeder flock.

I haven't, but I'm going to give it a shot. I have a Buff Cornish rooster and some White Leghorn hens, and when I can set up some grow out pens, the plan is to raise them out, keep records and do the math. Someone mentioned that their 3 heavy hens would pump out 14 eggs a week - 3 WL will do 21 in a week, as will Sex Links, and BRs or Buff Orps will do about 18, which makes cross-breeding the way to go, unless you really just want a project. Also, all of those are bred for early maturity, and if you want to raise meat birds, you really, REALLY want to breed HARD for early maturity. Otherwise you have birds that grow frame rather than meat (or eggs)

I'm not thinking that the Buff Cornish/WL cross will be amazing, but I enjoy genetics and math, and then I'll have that data for when people ask, because honestly I can't think of a better way to get decent breast meat on a non-CX.

I'm not just looking for good meat breeds, I'm starting my own chicken hatchery. But in the process I'm also hoping down the road to become my own certified processor allowing me to sell directly to the public and local grocery stores/restaurants.

Just a bit of advice, from someone who's been doing this a while, and sold to the public. You *might* be able to sell "heritage type" chickens at your farm stand, if you market heavily and have access to clientele making at least 60k a year. Grocery stores and ESPECIALLY restaurants need absolutely consistent product. The first time you send a chef a bird with extra dark thighs or a thin breast and they go "I can't sell this" is the last time you sell anything to that restaurant, or any restaurant in town as soon as the word gets out, and it will. You will have to be able to send them 20, 4# birds a week, who, if parted out will give X weight of breast and X weight of thigh and drums, which should cook up to X shade consistently (Or whatever number and weight they order). Because if there are 2 people at the table who ordered the chicken and they're going "Mine is really dark, is yours dark?", "That one is bigger" you're out of business.

Also, please know that Joel Salatin's hobby is raising birds, his multi-million dollar business is selling books and appearances.

But as of today, I'm after a chicken breed that is sustainable, healthy and can live a productive happy life, after all, I am what I eat.

Well, my meat birds are always healthy until I butcher them, happy as clams for 8 weeks and are very productive of meat. If you want a meat bird that produces eggs, and that's what's important to you - go for it! I wish you success, please keep records and share them! I just want to point out;
I've been a member of this forum for 12 years, and the forum is older than that. Plenty of time to develop a breed. There are over 15,000 threads in Meat Birds, and at least half of them are about "I don't want to raise CX because I hate/don't understand a terminal cross." Not One of those people have come back here going "Success!!!"
The best you'll hear is "Well, I have X and they do ok, I raise them for 5-6 months and they're way more expensive, but we don't eat a lot of chicken and I'm happy with it, which is what matters."

Now, yes, if they're happy, that's what matters! But for your goals, nobody - and really, nobody - is selling any significant amount of meat from birds they keep a breeder flock of. You have people selling Freedom Rangers - which you're also buying chicks to do - and people who sell a couple of their specialty birds here and there, but absolutely no one who is paying the feed bill with meat sales of birds they bred and raised. 0%.

But, hey, maybe it can be done! Maybe you'll read through and see a gap the rest of us haven't. It happens! I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible. Just make sure you check out what at least 7,000 people right here have been up to for well over a decade - that's a lot of education, y'know?

 

[CNJ]

To make that sustainable, you end up keeping a flock of each pure breed, and each year you cross roosters of the one with hens of the other to get your meat birds.

If you look at broiler parent stock videos, you will see that none of them have pea combs and they look like Cornish X on a once a day feeding ration.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Same old answer; not really.

Your best meat bird is pretty much always going to be a crossbred. I've had good results with a fast-maturing White Leghorn or California White rooster over "dual purpose" hens, but you lose that fast growth and breastiness in the next generation - F2s are always, always inconsistent. It's a simple fact of crossbreeding. The cross I mentioned is worth the trouble of butchering them out between 12 and 16 weeks in that you'll get something besides thighs. I flat refuse to raise a meat bird for longer than that, and I honestly resent having to feed them as long as 16 weeks - that's a LOT of feed!!

And, everyone who bothers to do the math learns that it is way, WAY cheaper to buy CX chicks when you want them rather than maintain a breeding flock all year - and especially a breeding flock of large, heavy birds who eat a lot and tend not to lay well - for the relatively few chicks you are going to raise. The big producers manage it by the magic of "economics of scale" and a constant rotation of their breeders into pot pie.

And speaking of math and going back to the feed thing I mentioned - and my time, raising and butchering. And meat-to bone ratio. And waste per bird. And heat for the brooder (CX chicks come off heat MUCH faster). And having my meat coop space taken up for twice as long - it just doesn't add up.
Listen, it takes me as much time to butcher some scrawny thing as it does a fat roaster. The less efficient birds have a higher percentage of feathers, bone and innards to dispose of than the meaties, and I have to butcher more of them to get the same amount of meat, so I end up with as much as 3x the mess to dispose of. CX I can start to butcher at 6 weeks, or take them to 8 for big birds, so my meat bird space has, tops, an 8 week turnover time. Less efficient birds will be filling that coop for twice as long, so even if I can fit half again as many of them in the space (say, the coop holds 10 CX, but 15 NotCX) over a 16 week period I can raise 20 6# CX versus 15 3.5# NotCX. That's 120# vs 52.5# for the same amount of time, coop space, cleaning, bedding, butchering. The CX will eat an average of 1.25 lbs a week, each, and the NotCX will only eat 1, but the CX are gone in 8 and the NotCX are on my feed bill for 16, so that's 10lbs to raise a CX and 16lbs to raise a smaller bird.
It just doesn't add up.
And then to add maintaining a breeding flock on top of that? And you can't even say "Well, they'd also be my laying flock" because they will lay less eggs for more food and of course you're not getting any egg you want to hatch a chick from. And if you want them to raise their own chicks, it's even worse because then that hen isn't laying anything for at least 6 weeks, plus the 2 weeks worth of eggs you want her sitting on, so that's 8 weeks of eggs lost per batch of chicks.

I don't know about you, but there's other stuff I'd rather waste time and money on.

 

[Oddyseous]

I'm not after a meat-bird good for eggs, although eggs are a huge bonus. I'm after a sustainable meat-bird.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

So are we all.

The only thing that competes with a CX is another strain of CX. If a distant second will do, you have options - but none will be CX-like. Recommend you not start your project as I did, but start instead with Rangers, Color Broilers, or similar, then cull hard, saving only the very few you most want to eat.

 

[Oddyseous]

So are we all.

The only thing that competes with a CX is another strain of CX. If a distant second will do, you have options - but none will be CX-like. Recommend you not start your project as I did, but start instead with Rangers, Color Broilers, or similar, then cull hard, saving only the very few you most want to eat.

Yeah considering mixing breeds with the rangers. I'm just not happy with the current options out there.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

A quick, self breeding, meat bird that tolerate "ranging" is basically the Holy Grail right now.

I'll grant a lot of historically "dual purpose" birds have been bred to focus on egg production for decades, and that some real improvements can be made breeding meat back onto those bones - but its only going to get you to a distant third at this point. the differences are just too stark for an individual breeding program over any reasonable time scale to much cut into the lead of the decades long commercial efforts that have gone into the Cx and its specialized feed and management requirements.

 

[Oddyseous]

A quick, self breeding, meat bird that tolerate "ranging" is basically the Holy Grail right now.

I'll grant a lot of historically "dual purpose" birds have been bred to focus on egg production for decades, and that some real improvements can be made breeding meat back onto those bones - but its only going to get you to a distant third at this point. the differences are just too stark for an individual breeding program over any reasonable time scale to much cut into the lead of the decades long commercial efforts that have gone into the Cx and its specialized feed and management requirements.

Well, just like anything else, won't happen for sure if you don't try.

 

[CNJ]

I'm not after a meat-bird good for eggs, although eggs are a huge bonus. I'm after a sustainable meat-bird.

Some people on this forum have very large New Hampshire chickens, 10 week old heritage NH cockerels weighing in at about 7 lbs. Pullets 5lbs. https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/my-attempt-at-a-dual-purpose-heritage-flock.1489689/

I emailed Freedom Ranger Hatchery today and they responded that their current NH are Henry Noll’s line. Thank you for the head wind. As time goes on, I want to be a few steps ahead. Many thanks.

https://www.freedomrangerhatchery.com/shop/product/new-hampshire-gmo-free-chicken/

Oh I am getting excited, they ship chicks to Hawaii, I want to get this Henry Noll's New Hampshire chicken line.

 

[RiverOtter]

I'm not after a meat-bird good for eggs, although eggs are a huge bonus. I'm after a sustainable meat-bird.

Well, I kinda thought your problem with CX is they don't lay.
For certain, you're not breeding if you're not getting eggs. Ducks get nice and fat in about 9-12 weeks. And they're really easy to keep, very winter hardy. But they're not the meat bird of choice because you're not getting eggs when you want them. They're a seasonal treat/specialty.
So,,we bred ducks that will give us eggs whenever we want them! And - like chickens - those birds are thinner all over and not as fat and growthy when young.

Basically, something has got to give. If your flock won't give you the eggs you need for chicks when you want them, you don't really have a breeding project. And if they lay well and consistently, their energy is going into that and not meat.