Show Off Your Games!

[JShubin]

I have to AGREE with everything Jungle has to say... I also agree with CUDA regarding breeding specifically for gameness (thanks to human selection).
But where I disagree with CUDA is that, to be called gamefowl you dont need extreme gameness or be pure breeds.

For Example... For the most part I follow a natural selection with some human intervention with my gamefowl. I keep all my birds free range, they sleep in the trees and roam the neighborhood. Some get eaten by coyotes, dogs, racoons and hawks. Some get killed by other roosters or mother hens... and eventually you get hardy birds that survive all this. What I found is the extreme game ones end up dying out (for example they try to fight the older roosters when they are too young, or just pick fights they cant win.) What I ended up with is survivors, but extremely tough survivors. My main brood rooster, Fabio, took over dominance after a "natural" battle with his father Frenchy. Fabio wasnt extreme game, but he waited until he was old enough and tough enough to win (Frenchy used to chance him around the yard like a madman)..

Trust me, any person who sees this rooster or his offspring would call them game. He was the naturally dominant bird and proved himself to be so. I didnt breed him specifically for gameness, he was the result of tough brood stock. This is how I let things happen over the past 8-9 years I have been doing this, and almost every year a new dominant rooster arose. None of mine are pure breeds, they are mixed Greys, Green leg hatch and leiper hatch (and now Warhorse and spanish game because inbreeding became a problem). The roosters picked which hens to mate with and the hens who were the broodiest and toughest had the most chicks survive, and natural selection endured. All my hens are super broody and are most are double spurred, traits that seemed to ensure survival. My roosters also got bigger over time, because bigger birds had the strength to dominate, but they didnt loose any agility or speed, because they still needed to evade predators. Fabio can still fly across the yard almost as well as my crow, despite his size.

My fowl are extremely tough but smart. Anyone would call them game.. but they dont nessecarily possess extreme gameness nor are they pure bred.

With that said I now have changed all that because I favored certain chickens that I had personal relationships with (My kids and I hand raised them). So now I keep them in seperate changes, but if I let any of them out they would without a doubt fight until one died (because they all think they are dominant when they are in their own cages)... I dont let this happen now, because of my soft heart and my kids like them.

 

[CUDA]

I'm sorry JShubin, you don't own gamefowl by your own description. You are welcome to your own opinions, and I have no problem with that, but they are not gamefowl, and nobody who is experienced with true gamefowl would call them gamefowl either, even if they look the part. The misconception you both state regarding gamefowl is exactly why I take the time to try to educate those who are willing to listen when possible. There is no such thing as extreme gameness, or 1000% more game. Either they are, or they are not. In this case it's black and white. I don't mean to offend anyone, but this is how it is, no different than any other breed bred for a specific purpose. If it is no longer bred that way, it is no longer a true representation of the breed. Having gamefowl that aren't fully game would be no different than having a leghorn that is a poor layer. It's still a chicken yes, and still looks like it should, but it's no longer what it is supposed to be either. On a side note too, you will find that amongst many top breeders of gamefowl, letting hens hatch, raise their young on the range until they need to be separated, and only letting the strongest survive is quite common. Most serious breeders I know, including myself are some of the most ruthless cullers you will every meet.

 

[fowlsessed]

Anyone would call them "game", that doesn't know any better. We weren't talking about crossing lines, or even breeds, of Gamefowl, rather, crossing in different non-game breeds. Gameness will not survive if left up to natural selection, where the bird that runs (therefore is not game) is the only surviver, because the game ones were killed off by each other. Thus the runners are left to reproduce. You say that on your yard the birds holding the dominant position were constantly shifting, if the once-dominant cock's place was taken because he backed down, then you know for certain that they aren't game. I don't understand "extreme gameness". Here we run into the problem of people trying to redefine things with already set meanings, or maybe re-invent the wheel. Gameness has a definition, and it is absolute. They are or they aren't. There are no varying degrees of gameness, but there are with aggression, which people often get mixed up with gameness. The definition of gameness was already given several times.
But JShubin, sounds like some very good chickens you have there, as is usually produced by natural selection.

 

[Jungleexplorer]

why argue about GameFoul there is a test...and it will tell every time...

That was my point at then of my last post.

Good Cuda. Exactly.
No, Jungle, what Gallo mentions does NOT make a bird "game". Cuda described what "game" is. "Gameness" is only one, simple (yet extremely complex) thing: the willingness of a cock to die trying to rid all other males from his presence, anytime, anywhere, at all costs....basically. It is inborn, and naturally occurring in Gamefowl...breeding is its ultimate enemy.
Jungle, I would love to hear more about your "Amazonian chicken experience" I think it would make a wonderful, abstract, and thoroughly interesting subject. They are not gamefowl, neither are they fighting chickens, or anything of the like, just because they engage in long, often serious battles, so BYC shouldn't mind this most enlightening branch of the poultry world. You know I spent a little time in Honduras living there with my folks as Missionaries. A little more civilized then where you were, but still quite primitive and the chickens were "fend for yourself", work things out yourself, roost where you will etc. And harvested when ready to eat. So maybe I'll be able to relate a little bit.

I lived in a house on stilts with no walls and no TV for 20 years in the Amazon. My entertainment was my chickens. So for 20 years in the Amazon, I have been able to study chicken behavior in a completely natural setting up close and personal. They are flat out Amazing. I have raised chickens the "Natural' way in other countries too, but my flock in the Amazon was very different. I have never seen anything like them. Even here where people have targeted the aggressive gene through targeted breeding, most people on this forum have stated that gamefowl cockerels can live in peace with each other until they reach a certain stage of maturity. But my birds in the Amazon started serious battles at the age of one month. I am not talking about little spats. I am talking about full out battles that would last hours. It is quite amazing to see two little apple size chicks beat each other senseless and fight until neither one could stand up. Even though they had no spurs, these battles would be bloody and they would end up with hamburger heads. I think, because they resolved their issues when they were too small to kill each other, when they grew up they already had the pecking order worked out. That does not mean that as adults they did not battle. They did and the battles were usually final. But these battles were battles for dominance, they did not have to end up being final; it's just that my birds did not not know the meaning of the word give up. But after 20 years of watching and studying their behavior, I figured out that there was a system of hierarchy to everything they did. Even though I had a flock that sometimes was as many as 200 birds and many full grown there was always only one Cock that was the Alpha male. He became the alpha buy defeating every one of the other cocks on my farm and he stayed the Alpha by constantly defending his thrown. This occurred over a very long process.

Now new males were always growing up and battling among themselves and on occasion challenging the Alpha (which would result in them getting their butts kick to the moon). Now you have to understand that most of my cockerels never reached full maturity because they were eaten for lunch (by me). But if I saw one that showed good potential I would save he as a replacement Alpha if the current Alpha was getting old. By potential, I mean that he had the qualities to be a good Alpha and those qualities are, the hen respect him and he would sacrifice his life for the flock. Being able to observe my flock on a constant bases I could easily see which roosters had good Alpha qualities.

I always had a few good cocks that were full grown that were kind of like Sub Alphas, because you never knew when a Jaguar would come through and kill my Alpha. Now the day would come when the main Alpha would become old and start to show weakness. When the sub alphas would notice this they would start to get braver and it would eventually result in a battle between one of them and the main alpha. This was a big occasion on my farm so when it started we would all get together and watch. i would always pull for the Alpha, just because he had lead and protected the flock for so long, but I knew that this was natures way. Sometimes the old guy would surprise and keep his thrown, but just for a little while. But if the challenger won, it was all out war between the winner and the rest of the cocks. Basically, just because he beat the Alpha did not mean he was king. He had to earn the respect of all in battle. This event may go on for days or weeks until at last, one cock stood as the Alpha over the flock. All I have to say is that, we ate a lot of chicken and dumplings during these times. But it was a sad time for me and I always buried the Alpha instead of eating him. Not because he was tough, but because he deserved better.

I would have to say that I have probably watched more natural battles between roosters then most people on this forum. And I am not talking about short battles. I am talking about battles that went on for hours. Like I said, I did not have a TV. But things only worked this way on my farm where the system of hierarchy had been established. When people would want one of my cocks, I would warn them that they needed to get rid of their other roosters before releasing him or he will kill them. I gave one of Samson's sons to an Amazon Indian tribe and he became the foundation bird for their entire flock.

Now personally I disagree with Cuda's definition of the characteristics of a bird that has game. Through my extensive exposure to chickens, I can tell you with great confidence that if you take any rooster and lock that bird up and raise him separate from other roosters, that rooster will fight any and every rooster he comes across. There is nothing special about a rooster that does this, this is a completely normal chicken behavior. I will not claim or try to argue that my chickens in the Amazon were gamefowl. But every one of my cocks that were taken to another farm would kill every other rooster on that farm or die trying. This is an undeniable fact. But these same birds were able live together on a farm, once the hierarchy had been established as I just explained. But if I had raised all my cocks separate on my farm in the Amazon, I believe that if I one day released them, they would have killed each other, just like the gamefowl breeds claim their birds will do here. So if that is the quality that makes a bird Game, then I think you would be hard pressed to argue that my birds in the Amazon were not game (as an attitude, not as a breed).

I personally believe and have proven here on my farm in Texas, that one of the reason that gamefowl here in the US cannot live in peace each other, is that because of the firm belief that they can't do so without killing each other, they are never allowed to work out the system of hierarchy because of the way people raise them. I know that many people will disagree with this statement, but I do have evidence to back up what I am saying, I just can't share it on this forum.

If anyone believes this post is not acceptable by the rules, please let me know and I will delete it. I did ask before posting it.

 

[CUDA]

Quote:
You see friend, that is exactly why you don't understand gamefowl, or gameness period. Everything you stated goes in line with what you have been stating, a natural selection process. This is why they aren't game, and never will be game as in "gamefowl". There is no hierarchy in gamefowl, plain and simple. Like I said before as well, believe what you will, but we are truly talking apples and oranges. You want jungle type AG's, and I just want AG's. The problem you get is once you breed an AG like has been stated, it is no longer an AG, it's just a chicken.

 

[JShubin]

I agree with you Jungle.. Heiracrhy has everything to do with it.. None of my Dominant/Alpha roosters ever lost their dominant position because they ran (its because they died)... once they have the alpha mentatility they dont loose it... You can get dominant full gameness roosters if you keep them separate because they never had their butt kicked by an older or tougher rooster when they were young. I too have young chicks fighting all the time, even between pullets and cockreals. They figure it out and maintain that heiracrhy (Pecking order, lol) until they know they are ready to challenge the next guy up. Sometimes waiting until they are fully grown. I would have people come to my house to buy chickens and couldnt understand how I had 3-4 adult roosters roaming around. It because of the heirarchy and the alpha kept them in check.

They only things my chickens run from is certain death, be a predator or alpha rooster they are not ready to challenge. Like Jungle said, any rooster separated by tether or cage is willing to fight any other rooster, because in his own world he thinks he is the alpha. Doesnt make it any more game than a jungle or free range game.

My chickens are still game and they are all still considered American Game. Any new "pure game rooster" introduced into my yard would find himself locked in a battle to the death with one or more roosters.

 

[JShubin]

The differnce is the a free range chicken will pick battles carefully, because he is raised that way. Once they choose to battle they will never run... ever. At least in my flock. If I bred in some bad non-game blood than one might run, but I never did that. They are all game and posess gamefowl blood.

 

[fowlsessed]

Fascinating, Jungle. But let me say that many line do have sibling rivalries at such a young age as you mentioned, and often to the death. Mine start at three months old, and then proceed as you mentioned until they "game out". They are not fully game until they mature. You hazard incorrectly, the only reason people don't let the birds try 'n work things out, is because they/others have tried already and it ends in the death of all they wished to keep and breed. But amazing account. Probably how it happened in the Jungles with our birds ancestors.

 

[fowlsessed]

I really need not say more, CUDA knows what he's saying and transpires my thoughts exactly. Everyone (game) will fight everyone till the death. No matter what's happened, is happening or anything.

 

[gallo4319]

S

Good Cuda. Exactly.
No, Jungle, what Gallo mentions does NOT make a bird "game". Cuda described what "game" is. "Gameness" is only one, simple (yet extremely complex) thing: the willingness of a cock to die trying to rid all other males from his presence, anytime, anywhere, at all costs....basically. It is inborn, and naturally occurring in Gamefowl...breeding is its ultimate enemy.
Jungle, I would love to hear more about your "Amazonian chicken experience" I think it would make a wonderful, abstract, and thoroughly interesting subject. They are not gamefowl, neither are they fighting chickens, or anything of the like, just because they engage in long, often serious battles, so BYC shouldn't mind this most enlightening branch of the poultry world. You know I spent  a little time in Honduras living there with my folks as Missionaries.  A little more civilized then where you were, but still quite primitive and the chickens were "fend for yourself", work things out yourself, roost where you will etc. And harvested when ready to eat. So maybe I'll be able to relate a little bit.

I agree with Cuda
But seriously in my own opinion.
Those are qualities I had seen on game pit
I never had held a soft feather game
Or a game with a open vent
Etc.
a game that doesn't tolerate pain is not a game to me.
I had bred chickens since I was 4 years old for the table and I had also bred games
Since I can remember here and also in El Salvador . Centro america