Shrinky dinks: not good for chicks

[beckymom3]

Well, after nearly 48 hrs of eggs pipped or zipped with little to no progress, and only 4 of my 10 Dorkings hatching successfully though arduously over many hours, I helped out 5 of the remaining 6 and here's what I found: SHRINKY DINKS!!!!!

I dry incubated these rascals following the instructions in the sticky thread. On day 18 I raised the humidity to 55-60%, and did nothing until yesterday, day 21, when I added new water and a second hygrometer because I started to worry about humidity since only one egg had successfully made it. With RH at 70% and higher, the next 3 made it out over 24 hrs or better. What a wait.

I wrote the breeder I bought the eggs from regarding how long this hatch was taking, not just overall but each egg struggling for so long, and he said 24 hrs was too long to be zipped without progress. I'm so glad I wrote him, so glad I helped those babies out.

I steamed up the bathroom, got a warm, wet cloth (old fashioned unfolded cloth diaper), a pair of forceps and hemostats and q tips and set to work. Crunch crunch crunch, the shells and membranes were so dry. The membranes were like paper and on one it was glued to the side of it's head, another it's butt, another it's wing was glued stiff. One had a pip on it's small end but the head was up near the air cell in the big end. It died long before I started to help it. it never moved a muscle the whole time I was working on it. The pip was over it's bottom, no beak near it. I think one of the other chicks must have pecked that hole in it and the chick suffocated. There was absolutely no blood during any of the rescues. Rather, all the membranes were either white like thick parchment paper, or yellowish/green near the butt end.

The 4 remaining evacuees are alive and well, making a huge racket and trying to walk. The last egg is laying there and I realize it never pipped. I thought it had, but it was a piece of another egg's shell lying on it looking like a crack. Unfortunately, I did not hear a chirp in there and I'm worried I've now ruined it's chances because I had to get in there to help it's siblings. I had the humidity fogging up the place, but know that might not have been near enough if damage had already been done.

So sad!

After all this, I do have a question: has anyone ever had a chick die because of pecking from roaming chicks already hatched? Is that weird or what? Or did it pip and then totally rotate up and around, do a 180 long ways?

Also, what do you think about that shrinky dink stuff? That was what killed my first hatch, too. But this time I was obsessive about opening or disturbing lockdown. No opening until the very brief seconds of adding water and snatching out the aggressive chick that was pecking at the bellies and faces of newborns (that first born that got bored and hungry waiting for the slowpokes). My first hatch I had that thing off for 30 min on day 21 to transport it home. Very different. It seems so unfair!

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I'm very upset, though glad a majority have made it.

 

[Kiwibird]

Your last egg may still make it. Don't give up hope for another couple of days.

The dry incubation method is only suited to some climates, and it seems that humidity requirements vary considerably by location, and are often guided by trail, careful observation, and adjustment.

You have ended up with an OK hatch rate, actually, although not as good as you hoped for, and you have done very well with the chicks you had to intervene for. You can be proud of this.

I have heard of chicks damaging another shell once before, but it does not seem common, I have also heard of chicks pipping with a foot rather than a beak, but the feet should be near the head, as the chick is more or less curved in a U shape usually.

 

[beckymom3]

Well, that last chick was dead in the shell, never pipped, obviously shrinkwrapped. I am so disappointed. I ended up with 8 out of the 10 that made it to lockdown surviving, 4 obviously dried in the shell needing rescue but now doing great.

I have another incubator that has been at 70% humidity, upped to 82% last night, that is also having pitifully slow hatches. 12 Australorps literally lept out of their eggs, all finishing in just a few hours, but the Brahmas in there, 23 at the time of lockdown, are struggling. Today is day 23 (day 21 was late Wed. evening) and 17 are still unhatched. 2 eggs have been zipped partway for over 24 hrs, one pipped yesterday afternoon. They are in cartons so I can't see the entire egg which is frustrating.

The hard thing is, I have to leave for work this afternoon and won't be home until tomorrow evening. What to do? Should I help out those that I know are still alive? or should I let them stay in the shell hoping more of the unpipped eggs will hatch over the next couple of days?

I don't want to open that incubator, but those chicks already zipped are still alive though moving pretty weakly and not cheeping. I could help them, but that puts the other eggs at risk. But I don't have any idea if those eggs are still viable. Gosh it's frustrating.

What would you do?

 

[Kiwibird]

Before opening the incubator, make sure the room is warmish and slightly humid - boil a pot of water on the stove, for example, if you live in a particularly dry climate.

I would fill a spray bottle with clean, very warm water (the act of being sprayed cools it a little), open the incubator and spray all the eggs. Put in wet sponges or wet paper towels too, if you are sure dryness is the problem, although too much wetness can cool the incubator. Close the incubator again and give them half an hour. If they are too dry a lot will sort themselves out in that time. If you then decide to open up again and help any that need it, use the spray bottle again to keep things moist.

If eggs have started zipping and then stop for more than about 6 hours, they will be dry, because a zip hole lets more moisture out than a pip hole. I tend to break the zip line a bit further and see what happens next.

The more you help, the more attachment you develop to these babies, and the worse you feel if things go wrong. Also, breeding from chicks that need help to hatch may weaken the line, if there were any genetic contributors to the difficult hatch. These are some of the reasons for the instruction "do not help chicks to hatch". The risk of changing the temperature and humidity are there, but manageable. You must do what you think is best, knowing all that.

Don't give up hope for unpipped eggs till day 25.

ETA...

Regarding the taboo on opening the incubator, here are some incubation instructions from http://chickscope.beckman.uiuc.edu/resources/egg_to_chick/procedures.html :

After the 17th day, eggs should not be turned, and the incubator should not be opened unless it becomes necessary to add water, replace a light bulb, or make some other necessary adjustment.

To me that doesn't mean "don't do it", it just means "use common sense".

 

[loopy12]

I shrink wrapped over half of my eggs on my first hatch because I removed the aggressive firstborn who was attacking the two who'd just hatched...
We live and learn..
I had 20 eggs in there at lockdown, 9 made it out on their own, another 9 I helped out, one by one, over a period of two days. 7 of those 9 are fit and healthy.
With the shrink wrapped zipped chicks I wrapped them individually in warm damp cloths and unzipped them all the way so they could get their head out. 5 that I helped like this were then able to hatch themselves the rest of the way, which I think made for healthier chicks. If they've zipped, I figure they are ready to come out, yolk absorbed, blood vessels closed off etc.
Now the pipped ones were tougher. Initially I just opened the pip enough for the beak to be out, then left them 4-5 hours. If I peeled more shell off I could see blood vessels in the membrane and knew to go no further until they had gone. 4-5 hours was generally enough for that. Then peeled them a bit more. Waited a few more hours, a bit more peeling. I used a warm damp cloth to rub and push the membranes back gradually which also served to wash any gunk off them and keep them warm too. Constantly rewetting the cloth with warm water.
I took them down to about a third of the shell and then left them in the bator in their cloths to hatch the rest of the way when they were ready (when the yolk was absorbed).
On only one did I break a blood vessel, and I put a little corn flour on it and put it back in the batir for a while.
I know the seven chicks who survived my intervention wouldn't be here now if I hadn't. I learnt my lesson on not opening the incubator, but I also think there might have been some shrink wrapping anyway. Humidity was 65% but just didn't seem high enough.

Now, on the chick who was at the wrong end of the pip: I had a blue jersey giant who rocked a lot. It pipped 4th but then nothing happened. It got rolled upside down by the chicks but was still rocking so I knew it was still alive. 24 hours later I went to help it with the others I as helping, but it was dead. When I opened it up the head was, like yours, at the other end. I believe it pipped then got disorientated when it was rolled upside down. It tried to turn in the shell to pip upwards again I think but then goot shrink wrapped while turning and suffocated

The 20th egg never pipped and the chick was shrink wrapped

I have limited experience but what you described sounded so like my hatch I thought I'd tell you what I saw. You did well to rescue the ones you did.
Next time, not only will I not open the incubator, but I think I will aim for 75% humidity.

 

[onthespot]

dry incubation is a relative term. It works best in areas where the amient humidity is in the range that works for incubating eggs. (like in the southern states, MO, AR, TN, and such. If your relative humidity where you live is too dry, your eggs will dry out and your chicks will die. Period. Sure, there are places and times of year when you can incubate an egg inside a paper sack, set in a heating blanket. Not most of the year and not most places. The humidity requirements of the egg to hatch are the same, and the laws of nature don't cease to be in force because of a thread you read on the internet that only gives part of the story. Sorry you lost some chicks. Very sorry... I wish those "dry incubation" posts would also include information on their local weather conditions, humidity, temp, barometric pressure, wind, precipitation, everything. You might begin to see a pattern of where these threads are posted from. The TRUE test would be to have BYC volunteers or more, to dry incubate in the middle of summer, about a hundred from every state, and say what their local humidity is running, and then post what their results were. The results would save a lot of people from killing a lot of eggs from trying it at a bad time of year, or in a bad climate, I bet. No different than saying you can grow lettuce without watering it. depends when and where.

 

[KDbeads]

So why does dry incubation work for me? I'm just a short trip up from Beckymom and I've had really good luck with it. It's DRY here in Central TX. In fact I think she has gotten more rain than we have during her incubation. My average RH is around 20% when it's not raining. 3 hatches now, no problems. The last three hatches, before trying dry incubation, totaling 8 dozen eggs only produced 15 chicks.

A blanket statement that dry incubation will not work in the drier areas is pushing it! When I was incubating like the 'rules' say I lost the chicks during lockdown due to drowning after they pipped.

One thing I did was up the humidity on day 17 to around 80% and let it fall to 60-65% where I maintained it and I still had a few mushy chicks, they made it but they had a ton of wet goop in the shells compared to most of the rest. The only chicks that didn't make it had deformity issues.

Is there a possibility that there was too much air flow through the incubator?