Standard rule of breeding. The female should always be listed first in a cross! ...then no need to s

[windyridgefarm]

There is a rule in breeding that you always list the female parent first! In this case the hen. The reason for this is to standardize the literature and eliminate confusion. There is no need to say which is the hen or rooster because it is understood. This can eliminate confusion in instances where there are differences between the results of the cross due to the parental order such as sexlinked traits. I have been researching autosexed breeds, sexlinks and crosses with the same. While trying to follow the threads I have run into many instances where people talk about their crosses and share pictures alternating the order of the parents til you aren't sure which way the cross was done or how to intemperate the results. and it all becomes meaningless.
Another reason for this rule is that it is easier to be sure of the female parent than the male, where there can sometimes be a surprise.
Please share this rule with others as it will help simplify discussions and eliminate confusion. A benefit may be to make make results more searchable. Ie what happens when I cross Barred Rock x blue Ameraucana vs Blue Ameraucana x Barred Rock.

 

[Michael OShay]

There is a rule in breeding that you always list the female parent first! In this case the hen. The reason for this is to standardize the literature and eliminate confusion. There is no need to say which is the hen or rooster because it is understood. This can eliminate confusion in instances where there are differences between the results of the cross due to the parental order such as sexlinked traits. I have been researching autosexed breeds, sexlinks and crosses with the same. While trying to follow the threads I have run into many instances where people talk about their crosses and share pictures alternating the order of the parents til you aren't sure which way the cross was done or how to intemperate the results. and it all becomes meaningless.
Another reason for this rule is that it is easier to be sure of the female parent than the male, where there can sometimes be a surprise.
Please share this rule with others as it will help simplify discussions and eliminate confusion. A benefit may be to make make results more searchable. Ie what happens when I cross Barred Rock x blue Ameraucana vs Blue Ameraucana x Barred Rock.

You make a good point and it would be great if all of the BYC members stuck to the standard, but sadly the problem is further compounded by the fact that virtually all the major hatcheries (Ideal Poultry, Cackle Hatchery, Dunlap Hatchery, etc.) list the roosters first and the hens second in their crosses, which is probably where most BYC members get their examples from. Because of this, it's probably best to go ahead and add the words "hen" and "rooster" or "female" and "male" even though it requires some extra typing.

 

[windyridgefarm]

I agree it will be hard to get everyone to do it the right way. There is resistance from people who are used to doing it the other way around. I come from a science background. Science likes convention and standardization. I have had people tell me that is not how it is done with dogs and possibly horses. I only know what I was taught in my breeding and genetics courses. If for whatever reason every group makes up its own rules it is like creating different languages. What about cat breeders? How do they do it and snakes and ferrets and fish ?????
It would also help if people spell out the breed the first time they refer to it rather than assume everyone knows the abbreviations some of which could be the same Blue Andalusian, Blue Ameraucana.

 

[windyridgefarm]

My background is in plant breeding and genetics. I have never run into this issue before. Any other geneticists, professional breeders or professors want to chime in? I think it would really help if we could work towards everyone doing it the same way.

 

[Michael OShay]

It would also help if people spell out the breed the first time they refer to it rather than assume everyone knows the abbreviations some of which could be the same Blue Andalusian, Blue Ameraucana.

I definitely agree. For those of us who have been BYC members for awhile, we are used to seeing the abbreviations, but it's especially confusing to new chicken owners or even to experienced chicken owners who are new to BYC and not used to seeing those abbreviations.

 

[HeritageGoose13]

I agree it will be hard to get everyone to do it the right way. There is resistance from people who are used to doing it the other way around. I come from a science background. Science likes convention and standardization. I have had people tell me that is not how it is done with dogs and possibly horses. I only know what I was taught in my breeding and genetics courses. If for whatever reason every group makes up its own rules it is like creating different languages. What about cat breeders? How do they do it and snakes and ferrets and fish ?????

Chickens are an exception. Generally the male is always listed first. But every type of animal has its own culture surrounding it and these cultures often clash in stark contrast to one another.

As a somewhat related example, you mentioned snakes. Reptile keepers have an interesting way of listing their animals.

For instance... A breeder will advertise himself as having 3.4.1.7 corn snakes. Yup. 3.4.1.7 corn snakes!

With reptiles, the first number is the amount of males you own, the second number is the amount of female you own, the third number is the amount of hatched unknown-sex animals you own (hard to tell with many reptile species) and the fourth number is the amount of eggs you have incubating. Obviously people new to snake culture have no idea what this means at first. 3.4.1.7. corn snakes? they say, how is that even possible???

So moral of the story, you cannot carry traditions from one animal's culture to another. And you can't assume what makes perfect sense to you makes any sense to anyone else. I like how each one is different and do no think there should be a standardization.

 

[Finnie]

OK, finally found this thread, so I'll write here what I had been going to write on the Cream Legbar Hybrid thread.

My point is that there is a standard way to do it, Perhaps it is only adhered to in the scientific community. It has been awhile since I read any papers dealing with animal genetics but dont remember it being any different. I find it difficult to believe it would be.different than plant plant genetics. It only takes a little stray pollen, or a hen that wasn't isolated quite long enough and you would be following the wrong family lines. I dont want to hijack this tread so I started one on this topic. We can discus it there unless people feel it is relevant here.

What you say makes sense, so I tried to google and find some scientific articles on the subject, and what do you know, I found this. Somewhere in there it actually does say that the female goes before the x and the male after. But it does specifically apply to plants.

http://how-to.wikia.com/wiki/Howto_write_a_CIMMYT_maize_pedigree



I then tried to find something parallel that referred to animals, and I could not. So I am still open to the idea that animals and plants could be different. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if you are correct in saying that only the scientific community uses this terminology, and the lay-breeders who run dog shows and horse races have made up their own way of writing things.

I don't think you are going to change the dog world, but since this is a chicken forum, I am all for learning what is correct in chicken circles. It definitely would be good if everyone used all the same terminology.

ETA: I can't make the link work. Maybe anyone who really cares can copy and paste it in their browser...

 

[windyridgefarm]

My point is there are no exceptions and why science has no cultures and does not use common names etc. .. Things are done the same way in Japan as they are in Russia as they are in the USA. I wonder what chicken people do it in other cultures Imagine the confusion if they all do it in different ways. Even though people in garden clubs might call it a Sweet William among other things in the USA, it is dianthus barbatus everywhere. Allowing researchers in other countries to work with and learn from each other
Someone should pull a science journal paper or find a researcher dealing with sex linked traits. If not I will try to stop by the poultry research dept next time I am at the university. Though part of me feels like I am beating a dead horse, people are going to do what they are going to do and I should just leave it alone lol.

 

[Toddrick]

I thought the standard in all animal crosses was to list the sire first (I do come from a dog background). I do strongly agree that standards are important, but it seems to me if chickens are listed by breeders with the dame first then they are the exception, have it backwards, and should fall in line.

 

[windyridgefarm]

I guess the question is how do the lay people decide what they are going to do? Seems like they should try to follow the research and professionals in the field to be correct. I doubt it would be different for animals. Genetics is genetics be it dog, cat, horse or orchid. Dont get me started on orchids Those people are Crazy lol Partly because orchids are so promiscuous.Plants of different species and even genera cross readily. Id be crazy too if I had to work out those crosses.