Théo and the chickens des Sauches

[ManueB]

Bumblefoot if that's what is the problem is difficult to deal with without a vet.

I have been using the term bumblefoot the way it mostly is - any type of foot abcess with a scab and pus, that can potentially lead to infection as it is a doorway to bacteria. While i’m pretty sure once bacteria sets in it can't be treated without a vet, I suppose a chicken that got s.aureus would be at least limping? At this point only Cannelle’s foot is warm and swollen but she doesn't limp or seems in pain at all. The other chickens have moderate swelling or none and their foot are normal temperatures.
Anyway, while we could potentially take Cannelle to the vet if needed I'm pretty sure the problem is environmental seeing how so many chickens are affected. I would like to be sure it is the ramp or something else, and address the cause, otherwise the problem wont be resolved.

 

[ManueB]

Could you take some pictures as well please.

It didn't bloom this year but I found an old photo from 2019 I had taken for identification.

 

[Perris]

the worms will have become resistant

this is an environmental issue, not just for the ones on our properties or in our animals. A proportion of the quantity administered is not absorbed and passes out to contaminate land and water. This is a study of the result from 2020
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969720383376

I also saw something in the news about dog and cat wormer residues contaminating the environment here some months ago but can't find it again now (a google search is just swamped with posts by producers of pet wormers to sell their products). The little doses our animals poop into their environment are exactly the sort of low dose that promotes the development of resistance in worms, same process as for chickens with coccidia.

Here's another relevant research project
https://sefari.scot/research/anthelmintics-and-the-environment-–-opening-a-whole-can-of-worms

 

[BDutch]

And what a cutie she was !
I might steal your idea if the leghorns keep struggling in the bath.

While I haven't used DE internally, I used it a lot on my chickens and in my coop before I came upon BYC. It's the main product used here against parasites like in the Netherlands I guess. I still use it once in a while in the coop, but a lot less. I don't feel comfortable using it internally in the feed though.
I have been a user of the mite traps since I have a coop, but they are mostly inefficient in my coop, probably because I have too many points of access to the roosts, and I think the mites live on the floor in the hay. I almost never see mites in the traps, even when I’m seeing some on the feed barrel.
I’ve said before that my coop due to it's nature will never be parasite free so I concentrate on trying to keep the mites off the roosts. I use in turn a pyrethrin spray, a surfactant spray, juniper tar, and now my partner burns the roosts with the gas torch. I also use a lot of wood ashes now, in the litter and on the ramp. But honestly the main thing that impacts the mites population is the heat. It gets out of control when the nights stay around 20/ 68 degrees.

Regarding the deworming, I probably didn't make myself clear that I see the six months as a minimum safe duration, meaning that I don't plan to deworm the whole flock more than that. I don't agree with routine deworming of the flock when you know you have worms in your environment at a fixed date. I also think deworming should only be done if you see signs of overload or health issues. We did a global deworming in mid may even though there was no sign of worms because the breeder who sold us the chickens told us they needed deworming. Then I saw a few tapeworm segments just two weeks after. So I'm not repeating this mistake. What I fear is that the day I have a sick chicken that really needs a deworming the worms will have become resistant because I have been feeding them Flubendazole two or three times a year for years. I have the same problem with the cats. My question is what the best strategy would be in a worm loaded environment so as not to develop resistance and without endangering the chicken's health. Most people say you need to deworm the whole flock, but if I do that everytime I have a worm problem I don't think Flubendazole will keep on working.(I have also found a few french writings on that since it's a real question for the egg industry now more layer hens are outside. There is a real financial issue, so my guess is there will be some research to produce another egg safe dewormer, but maybe not in years.)
I have the same problem with my cats, by the way. I deworm them and a month after they are pooping worms again.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I meant DE to get a bit more in control (not eliminate) worms and improve the health. See spoiler.
The corrugated cardboard you could use on the roosts to soften the roosts because of the bumble foot and also to take out the overload of mites at the same time (daily).

I totally agree with not using dewormers if possible. Its a known problem that the worms come back.
I would get the hay out of the coop floor and add a layer of sand mixed with DE or ashes. Put the hay in a container/plastic garbage bag or burn it. I even got all hay out of the laying nests for as long as I had mites. Just a nice layer of sand with DE seemed okay for them.

Have you ever seen these oil cups for red mite control?

Spoiler: Red mite cups

from levendehave.nl with google translate: Herman van Olst, specialist in product development, designed the trays/cups after an example from the poultry sector. He made them from plastic and assembled them in such a way that they are easy to mount on the perches. A new perch can then be placed on the baths. If the perch still makes contact with a wall, the oil baths will not work, warns Herman van Olst. The lice must only be able to reach the chickens via the oil bath. The trays can be mounted with one screw. For example, by putting salad oil or sunflower oil in the container, the red mites will drown.

In the Netherlands they sell these oil cups in the animal supply shops to put on the end of the roost to prevent mites coming on the newly added roosts during the night. Just cleaning the roosts daily should not be too difficult. I never tried them though. It would be difficult to install them in my coop because it takes up too much space.

 

[BDutch]

PS
More about getting in control of red mite.
I used a herbal solution and powder to add to the water and feed in combination with DE to get the mites out.

The combination of these three supplements are recommended nowadays in the Netherlands for mite control. They are all harmless (allowed) for chickens and there is no egg withdrawal needed. Normally I wouldn’t support the commercial industry, but this really worked for me. I haven’t seen any red mites anymore for over a month now.

https://finecto.com/en-gb/chicken/finecto-method-for-chickens/
The spay is a DE solution I didn’t buy, having plenty of DE powder I could mix with water to make a paint.

 

[Shadrach]

I was tired and didn’t make a good job of the post. The post was mainly directed at Manue.

This is the first issue; different advice for different people.

Next problem is different, or rather overlapping issues.

Then there is the politics.

Finally there is the reporting of issues with the chickens.

I looked after chickens in a very similar environment to Manue’s when I was in Catalonia, right down to the occasional difficulties of leaving the smallholding due to lack of roads off the mountain in times of sever weather. The one advantage I had was Gloria the vet. She still needed getting to. We also had a visiting farm vet. The advice from the farm vet was often very different to the advice from Gloria who mainly dealt with pets.

I rarely had sick chickens once their housing and feeding was sorted out. What I did get a lot of was injuries; predator inflicted, accidents due to the nature of the terrain and other injuries through chickens fighting.

Reading Manue’s thread is a bit like reading the daily sickness and deaths log at the pensioners flats I live at. This could be Manue’s dramatic style of writing which leads me to believe all the chickens have worms, mites, some are sick from coccidiosis, many have bumblefoot and there are frequent murder attempts among the chicken population.

There is something wrong here and it’s on this impression I gave the advice in the post that has it seems had people reaching for studies and environmental politic arguments.

Worming.

I didn’t worm as a routine in Catalonia because I could get a fecal float done by Gloria which I did with random samples from time to time. I don’t, and we don’t usually know whether a chicken has a higher than acceptable worm count or not, even if one sees worm segments in poop. It needs to be tested for.

Most chickens that I have known carry some worm load. It’s how large that load is and what type/s of worm they have that is important.

Warm damp environments it seems from studies and reports are more likely to give worm problems than hot and dry environments.

Here in the UK I have wormed the allotment crew with Flubenvet twice a year and this is primarily because I haven’t got set up to send off samples for analysis yet and the number of chickens there were.

Now there are fewer chickens, a better environment, better opportunities for the chickens to eat what they feel they need/prefer, and in the future I will send of samples and the routine worming will stop.

High worm counts do a lot of damage to the chickens digestive tract. If one is brave or foolish one can try to make an assessment on which is more damaging in the long run, unknown worm count, or the possibility of developed resistance to the worming drug used (there are others apart from amprolium) and seven days where the uptake of vitamin B is less than optimal.



Using DE for internal parasites such as worms has been studied quite extensively and the science says it doesn’t work. One can pick the science, or the faith, but then I would hope to find some consistency in peoples choices of one, or the other on all issues.

Just because something is natural doesn’t make it safe.



Bumblefoot.

What exactly is bumblefoot? It depends on who one asks. Some chickens get a wound on the underside of their foot which scabs over and it seems causes them no problem. I’ve had a few of these over the years. It’s a problem when the core becomes infected and/or the issue causes walking difficulties. Some cases reported as bumblefoot are nothing of the sort and may be swelling through bruising or another infection. I’ve read with horror some of the I operated on my chickens foot stories. Take the chicken to the vet or try some of the non invasive methods to remedy the problem.

I’ve had one case of bumblefoot in some twenty years of chicken care. I was still treating it when I left Catalonia so I don’t know how effective the non invasive route I took was.



Coccidiosis.

Anyone here ever dealt with it? Any of you seen what it does to chicks? What about when a new strain arrives in the environment and the adults get sick because they have no resistance to the new strain. Before I made the changes to how chicks were hatched and reared in Catalonia and introduced medicated feed over 80% of the chicks died from coccidiosis. It was heartbreaking.

Apparently coccidiosis was a major problem in the area. Many other small holders had battled with it.

Sometimes saving a life is more important than what some study writes about the long term effects of the drugs used to fight it and the benefits of gradually acquired natural tolerance.



Comment

I’m not an advocate of using drugs as a first response to health problems. I’ve had numerous disagreements with a number of those in this site who not only recommend antibiotics for example and help people bypass the laws that restrict their use.

I’m much more in favour of providing properly considered housing, freedom of movement, varied forage and better than adequate exercise as some of you may have read on my thread and others.

However, when facing life threatening diseases that can be cured with the right drugs given at the correct dosages I’m not so arrogant to deny the patient the treatment because I have some badly thought through eco warrior beliefs.

I’ve lived with the eco warrior types. If you do or have any of the products or recreations mentioned in a far from adequate and comprehensive list below then I can promise you the environmental damage being done by these products and pursuits is far greater than medicating a sick chicken.

Most household cleaning products. Go on, have a look under the sink.

Most shampoos and conditioners.

A vehicle in the drive.

Holiday that involve flight or long distance travel by vehicle of any type.

Air conditioning units

Household soft furnishings that are made from non natural fibres including carpets.

Plastic containers in the fridge?

Non natural clothing materials often found in sports wear.

Etc, etc.

This is a very very small list.

When anyone who bangs on about the environmental impact of giving medication to chickens and buying only organic produce and all the usual privileged middle class eco warrior stuff I read can put a cross against the few products and pursuits mentioned above then I’ll pay more attention; studies or not.

Meanwhile; Manue, if you believe your chickens have worms and you are either not able or not prepared to get a worm count done then have a look at some pictures and read some studies on what effect a high worm count has on a chickens long term health and then worm them. If you can’t/wont do regular fecal tests then worm them in the spring and autumn.

If you have adults that have coccidiosis then treat them. If you are unfortunate enough to have a new strain effecting adults in your tribe then it can and does kill them if left untreated.

If you have coccidiosis in your environment then if you are not able to monitor and diagnose correctly then use a medicated feed.

If you have cases (plural) of bumblefoot then take them to a vet and carefully consider the conditions you keep your chickens in.


Finally, would I give the same advice to say Perris? No, Perris as far as I’ve read has a healthy and thriving tribe.

Would I give the same advice to say RC? No, one of her chickens even looks a bit off colour and its off to the vets and she can afford the fees and the vet is competant.

 

[no fly zone]

And what a cutie she was !
I might steal your idea if the leghorns keep struggling in the bath.

While I haven't used DE internally, I used it a lot on my chickens and in my coop before I came upon BYC. It's the main product used here against parasites like in the Netherlands I guess. I still use it once in a while in the coop, but a lot less. I don't feel comfortable using it internally in the feed though.
I have been a user of the mite traps since I have a coop, but they are mostly inefficient in my coop, probably because I have too many points of access to the roosts, and I think the mites live on the floor in the hay. I almost never see mites in the traps, even when I’m seeing some on the feed barrel.
I’ve said before that my coop due to it's nature will never be parasite free so I concentrate on trying to keep the mites off the roosts. I use in turn a pyrethrin spray, a surfactant spray, juniper tar, and now my partner burns the roosts with the gas torch. I also use a lot of wood ashes now, in the litter and on the ramp. But honestly the main thing that impacts the mites population is the heat. It gets out of control when the nights stay around 20/ 68 degrees.

Regarding the deworming, I probably didn't make myself clear that I see the six months as a minimum safe duration, meaning that I don't plan to deworm the whole flock more than that. I don't agree with routine deworming of the flock when you know you have worms in your environment at a fixed date. I also think deworming should only be done if you see signs of overload or health issues. We did a global deworming in mid may even though there was no sign of worms because the breeder who sold us the chickens told us they needed deworming. Then I saw a few tapeworm segments just two weeks after. So I'm not repeating this mistake. What I fear is that the day I have a sick chicken that really needs a deworming the worms will have become resistant because I have been feeding them Flubendazole two or three times a year for years. I have the same problem with the cats. My question is what the best strategy would be in a worm loaded environment so as not to develop resistance and without endangering the chicken's health. Most people say you need to deworm the whole flock, but if I do that everytime I have a worm problem I don't think Flubendazole will keep on working.(I have also found a few french writings on that since it's a real question for the egg industry now more layer hens are outside. There is a real financial issue, so my guess is there will be some research to produce another egg safe dewormer, but maybe not in years.)
I have the same problem with my cats, by the way. I deworm them and a month after they are pooping worms again.

Laserbeak is still doing well

 

[ManueB]

Thanks everyone for the input and for taking the time to address my chicken's problems. While there are a lot of issues in my flock, none of my chickens look to be really unwell for the time being (apart from Blanche and that was from the hawk attack in December). I will think about all has been said, finish deworming Piou-piou for the five days, continue with the bumble foot treatment i’ve begun for ten days, and see where we are. I will also search more to try to find a lab that does direct fecal floats, since the vets dont.
The test for coccidies came back negative and the vet told my partner it wasn't conclusive, as the number of oocyts really depends on the moment of the cycle. What I see it that a few chickens (I know which ones) are still having those worrying poops. The treatment I was given is an association of sulfadimethoxin and trimetrophrin, antibiotics. It's a flock treatment. I will use it if I see signs of chickens acting unwell. I hope that the chickens are overcoming this on their own. I believe it happened because we had an abnormally rainy season.

I have friends arriving unexpectedly for the weekend, we are getting honey from the hives tomorrow, and i’m leaving on wednesday and thursday so I probably won't be updating as much, unless I have major developments.

Gaston, what are you looking for in there ? Piou-piou 's eggs ?

​

 

[ManueB]

Laserbeak is still doing well

I didn't dare ask, but i’m happy to hear this. Can I ask how are you doing ?

 

[Molpet]

Anyone here ever dealt with it? Any of you seen what it does to chicks?

I haven't had it in chicks, but I have a strain that wiped out the poults first year. I didn't think it was coccidiosis because none of the chicks were sick and no blood in poop....the only symptom was they were fluffed up like they were cold and dead the next day.
In desperation I started corid and saved some.