The "Ask Anything" to Nicalandia Thread

[ChicksnMore]

Some have said it's just a bad blue. That its pretty hard to get them even in coloring. So yeah I agree it's not the dreaded bluvender.

Why is blue and lavender together dreaded?

 

[NagemTX]

Why is blue and lavender together dreaded?

I think I have finally figured that out. Lavender has links to the feather shredder gene and it can transfer it to other colors if the lavender birds have it. It's also said it makes it have inconsistency in the color of the bird I don't believe this much as that's a personal opinion. It's also said it's hared to weed out of a blue line because it's hard to tell apart from the blues. That last one is why I don't trust the opinion one in that it makes crappie color. If you can't tell them apart then you can't say it's crappie.

Anyway if you are breeding for SOP not cross those streams.

 

[dheltzel]

@dheltzel I would love your opinion on the cream legbar Sexlinked Silver vs Gold debate. I have always held the belief of gold myself but recently have doubts.

I’d love to know your thoughts!

I am not well versed in the interactions with melanizers. Legbars are not my principle interest with regard to gold/silver. I make extensive use of that gene in my Welbars (Crele Welsummers) where I always use a heterozygous cockerel in the breeding pen so that about half the pullet chicks (easily sexed at hatch) are silver and half gold. This aligns well with local chick demand, where different colored chicks are a definite advantage.
But this does apply to Legbars because I always add Cream Legbar pullets (culls from the breeders I raise) to the Welbar breeding pen to make autosexing Olive Eggers. These also come out roughly half silvers, as one would expect.
A breeder wants to get Legbar chicks from me to build a sustainable flock for eggs and selling chicks. They also want to create Olive Eggers, so I am including some Welbar pullet chicks to live in the pen with the Legbars. I told them the OE pullet chicks would be gold, as I never see silver chicks hatching from the Cream Legbars. In this case it would not really matter for people buying OE chicks from them, but it would give you a definitive test mating to determine the silver/gold allele status of the cock. If you were to add a non-cream, non-lavender pullet to your legbar flock and hatch those eggs, you would get more information about whether the cock has any silver.

 

[ArthedainIV]

I am not well versed in the interactions with melanizers. Legbars are not my principle interest with regard to gold/silver. I make extensive use of that gene in my Welbars (Crele Welsummers) where I always use a heterozygous cockerel in the breeding pen so that about half the pullet chicks (easily sexed at hatch) are silver and half gold. This aligns well with local chick demand, where different colored chicks are a definite advantage.
But this does apply to Legbars because I always add Cream Legbar pullets (culls from the breeders I raise) to the Welbar breeding pen to make autosexing Olive Eggers. These also come out roughly half silvers, as one would expect.
A breeder wants to get Legbar chicks from me to build a sustainable flock for eggs and selling chicks. They also want to create Olive Eggers, so I am including some Welbar pullet chicks to live in the pen with the Legbars. I told them the OE pullet chicks would be gold, as I never see silver chicks hatching from the Cream Legbars. In this case it would not really matter for people buying OE chicks from them, but it would give you a definitive test mating to determine the silver/gold allele status of the cock. If you were to add a non-cream, non-lavender pullet to your legbar flock and hatch those eggs, you would get more information about whether the cock has any silver.

This is a great point, insight and test to make. @NatJ are you familiar with any photos of chick down involving both the Homozygous silver gene and MH? Would this down be distinguishable from gold? It appears oftentimes a heterozygous gold shows more gold down than silver in the chick.

Even though MH does not typically affect down, do you think there is a possibility that it does in the event of a silver male that would normally show no red, instead does due to Mh?

 

[NatJ]

It appears oftentimes a heterozygous gold shows more gold down than silver in the chick.

There are large numbers of gold/silver sexlinks that have gold females and heterozygous silver/gold males, and they are easy to distinguish at hatch. Of course the parent stocks have been selected for whatever genes will make that easier, but they do show that some heterozygous males can be easy to distinguish from gold females.

So if you think that heterozygous gold looks more gold than silver in the chick down, you must be looking at different chicks than the ones I'm thinking of.

Even though MH does not typically affect down, do you think there is a possibility that it does in the event of a silver male that would normally show no red, instead does due to Mh?

Rhode Island Red chicks are definitely red at hatch, as compared with something like Buff Orpington or Wheaten Marans. I have always assumed the Mahogany gene was a large part of why the Rhode Island Reds are red at all ages, including when they hatch.

Those examples are all in breeds with E^Wh Wheaten, so I don't know whether the effects would be different on a different e-locus, or with other genetic differences.

I would expect Black Laced Red Wyandottes to have Mahogany but Gold Laced Wyandottes (Black Laced Gold) to lack it. Looking at pictures of the chicks, I see lighter gold shades on the Gold Laced, and richer reds on the Black Laced Red. So that might be an example on a different genetic background (not Wheaten), with Mahogany still showing an effect in the chick down (unless it's some other gene causing that effect? But I can't think of what other gene it would be).

@NatJ are you familiar with any photos of chick down involving both the Homozygous silver gene and MH? Would this down be distinguishable from gold?

I'm not aware of such photos, but maybe look at threads with people posting photos of backyard mix chicks. If they have a Red Sexlink rooster with silver hens of any breed, some of the male chicks should be homozygous Silver and heterozygous Mahogany.

That ides is based on the assumption that the common Red Sexlinks should be heterozygous for Mahogany because they are sired by a Rhode Island Red rooster, and the males would be heterozygous for Silver as well (because that's how they are sexed).

The "red sexlinks" or "gold/silver sexlinks" I keep mentioning are the ones commonly sold as Gold Comet, Red Star, ISA Brown, and a variety of other names. The females are red to gold in color, usually with white tails, and lay lots of brown eggs. The males are yellow/white at hatch, grow white feathers when young, then tend to have dark red leakage in their shoulders by the time they are mature. They almost always have a red father (Rhode Island Red, New Hampshire, or something of the sort), and a white mother (Rhode Island White is one of the possible mother breeds).

 

[kurby22]

Some have said it's just a bad blue. That its pretty hard to get them even in coloring. So yeah I agree it's not the dreaded bluvender.

That’s what it looks like to me too. I believe it has to do with the melanizers that you get some of the unevenness in the blue colors, but I think the lavender and blue makes the blues super light and your blue has a lot of dark markings. I know it’s not desired to look the way your bird is, but I think she’s really pretty! I’m drawn to the unique more than the uniform…so I have a tough time not loving the ones that don’t “fit”. I have a lavender that carries blue and I’ve been told that people will do it for their lavender line to make the lavender coloring more clean.

 

[Frizzle and Friends]

This is a great point, insight and test to make. @NatJ are you familiar with any photos of chick down involving both the Homozygous silver gene and MH? Would this down be distinguishable from gold? It appears oftentimes a heterozygous gold shows more gold down than silver in the chick.

I'm not 100% certain on this, but aren't Salmon Faverolles homozygous silver with mahogany? I know they are pure for silver because I've made gold sex-links using a gold rooster over a Salmon Faverolles hen, and the cockerel that hatched was clearly a heterozygous for gold/silver and the pullet was a darker gold/red. I just don't know if their heavy red pigments are due to mahogany or autosomal red. That's the only pure breed example that I can think of.

Starting with Males - A double silver gene will remove the red from the bird. Even at the Bow and shoulders where is it most prominent.

I also want to add that I have had a rooster in the past that had two silver genes while also having red wing bows. I don't know what caused the red, but it appeared to be inherited in an autosomal dominate manner when looking at the sons. The three male offspring from that rooster were all gold/silver splits, two of which had distinctly more red shoulders. All the pullets produced were clearly silver. Originally, I believed him to be a gold/silver split because of the red wing bows but every one of his offspring, when crossed to a gold hen (Porcelain D'Uccle), had the silver gene. It could have been a coincidence because there were only five hatched, but I would have expected at least one gold. After comparing him to his sons, he was distinctly more clean white than them, too. If you'd like, I have photos of this rooster and his offspring that I can share.

I can't really touch on any of your other points since I don't have much experience with pure or correct to type Cream Legbars. The rooster I currently have, the gold mentioned above, was sold as a Cream Legbar, but has single factor barring, only one crest gene, and is likely lacking the cream gene as well.
I completely agree with your hypothesis of the mahogany gene being mostly restricted to the backs of hens. If it is mahogany in Faverolles, then that is very obvious with the backs and not the breasts of the hens being salmon. I would expect a silver wheaten hen to be mostly white and that is not what is seen at all.
I definitely would be curious to see how your ideas would result because I could see them solving several of the problems typically observed in Cream Legbars and it's fascinating to think about how all these genes could interact with each other.

 

[ArthedainIV]

I'm not 100% certain on this, but aren't Salmon Faverolles homozygous silver with mahogany? I know they are pure for silver because I've made gold sex-links using a gold rooster over a Salmon Faverolles hen, and the cockerel that hatched was clearly a heterozygous for gold/silver and the pullet was a darker gold/red.

The best salmon faverolles contain Mh. It makes their autosomal red, particularly on the shoulders richer. My understanding is this also influences the tail color on hens and less black will be present due to red being enhanced and turning some of these tail feathers more brown. This assumes no other Melanizers are present.

the cockerel that hatched was clearly a heterozygous for gold/silver and the pullet was a darker gold/red. I just don't know if their heavy red pigments are due to mahogany or autosomal red. That's the only pure breed example that I can think of.

If the rooster was heterozygous and we are basing this on one pullet it would be hard to know if she was truly gold or silver based in this scenario if the assumption is right. I am also hoping to see the affect on E+ rather than EWh

I also want to add that I have had a rooster in the past that had two silver genes while also having red wing bows. I don't know what caused the red, but it appeared to be inherited in an autosomal dominate manner when looking at the sons. The three male offspring from that rooster were all gold/silver splits, two of which had distinctly more red shoulders. All the pullets produced were clearly silver. Originally, I believed him to be a gold/silver split because of the red wing bows but every one of his offspring, when crossed to a gold hen (Porcelain D'Uccle), had the silver gene. It could have been a coincidence because there were only five hatched, but I would have expected at least one gold. After comparing him to his sons, he was distinctly more clean white than them, too. If you'd like, I have photos of this rooster and his offspring that I can share.

Silver birds even without Mh do leak red in the shoulders frequently. This is autosomal red. How much leakage and coverage depends on how much autosomal red. Whether that is based on multiple genes that is really the question. I would love to see the photos! However I’m not sure how relatable the offspring may be with the porcelain related genes in play.

I can't really touch on any of your other points since I don't have much experience with pure or correct to type Cream Legbars. The rooster I currently have, the gold mentioned above, was sold as a Cream Legbar, but has single factor barring, only one crest gene, and is likely lacking the cream gene as well.
I completely agree with your hypothesis of the mahogany gene being mostly restricted to the backs of hens. If it is mahogany in Faverolles, then that is very obvious with the backs and not the breasts of the hens being salmon. I would expect a silver wheaten hen to be mostly white and that is not what is seen at all.
I definitely would be curious to see how your ideas would result because I could see them solving several of the problems typically observed in Cream Legbars and it's fascinating to think about how all these genes could interact with each other.

It will take some time, but there are certainly some questions here, and some good ideas from prior replies to test out.

I think we see some of this explained well in these articles
Autosomal Red March 2023
Autosomal Red Sept 2022

It doesn’t however touch on chick down, which is a big curiosity of mine.

It does showcase some examples of e+ silver hens and cocks with Ar and assumingly Mh. In the hens that are E+ we can see the brown stippling called for in legbars created from it where otherwise a silver hen would have more grey looking plumage. We also see cocks that appear cream colored.

outside of my curiosity of the affect on silver down. An observation I have had is it seems like the affects of this combination produce a stronger gold color on smaller breeds, and a lighter cream color on larger. This is pure speculation and I am sure there is more to it like potentially feather quality and other enhancers, however it feels like there is a threshold and a concentration required to show through the silver. That’s why it’s most common on the shoulder of males, and the breast of females on e+. And why when it is enhanced with Mh can spread to other areas where it did not show at all like a hens shoulder and plumage stippling, and a cocks saddle and hackles. That’s why also if we can assume the baseline for it is similar across breeds, but the breed is smaller, the concentration and coloration is presented as stronger on them.

 

[Frizzle and Friends]

If the rooster was heterozygous and we are basing this on one pullet it would be hard to know if she was truly gold or silver based in this scenario if the assumption is right. I am also hoping to see the affect on E+ rather than EWh

After reading the links you provided, I can see why this is such an interesting topic to you. As for the pullet, I'm almost 100% certain she is gold. As a chick she hatched out brown down with the faint chipmunk stripe you sometimes see on e+/eWh chicks. Interestingly enough, the cockerel of the same cross lacked the stripe. As an adult she is mostly red and salmon colored and is much more red than any of the Favorolles I've ever raised. Wish I had a photo of her at hatch for you, but she was an emergency assist so photos were the last thing I was thinking about.

Silver birds even without Mh do leak red in the shoulders frequently. This is autosomal red. How much leakage and coverage depends on how much autosomal red. Whether that is based on multiple genes that is really the question. I would love to see the photos! However I’m not sure how relatable the offspring may be with the porcelain related genes in play.

I believe this is on me for misreading your original post. Some how I read it as you saying that S/S roosters couldn't show red shoulders, so my bad.
Either way, porcelain should be gold columbian with lavender and mottling. Both are recessive, and other than the light juvenile mottling I've seen in extended black birds on BYC, there should be no heterozygous effects so I treat it as gold columbian. The cock also had a columbian-like pattern restrictor, but lacked black in the hackles.

Here is the cock with his clean silver hackles and red shoulders. He was a bantam, since you mentioned the size of the bird possibly plays a role.

I made a mistake with the offspring earlier. One had red shoulders, the others had gold. Above is his son that inherited his red shoulders.

And the two without the red shoulders. The bearded one was slightly more red in the shoulders, but that's probably from individual variation.

The two pullets as well. The dark one had brown stippling on her back and wings as well.

And since you mentioned being interested in chick down, here's a photo of two of the offspring the day they hatched. The one of the right is the light pullet and the one on the left is the red shouldered cockerel, I believe.

I think we see some of this explained well in these articles
Autosomal Red March 2023
Autosomal Red Sept 2022

It doesn’t however touch on chick down, which is a big curiosity of mine.

It does showcase some examples of e+ silver hens and cocks with Ar and assumingly Mh. In the hens that are E+ we can see the brown stippling called for in legbars created from it where otherwise a silver hen would have more grey looking plumage. We also see cocks that appear cream colored.

I just have to say, those were incredibly interesting articles! I hadn't seen a lot on autosomal red and mahogany before, so those were fascinating. The examples of the red silver cocks were really interesting. One thing that I noticed was there seemed to be a location on them that the silver showed through. On the 2023 article you could see it in the wing triangle, and the 2022 on the hackles. Even in those areas, the silver was a golden color.
On the topic of golden, I almost wonder if this is how the lines of golden phoenix or oegb are created. I've seen two things stated about them; either they are just a cross between a silver cock and gold hen to get S/s+ cockerels and S/- pullets or they are a true breeding color descended from the above cross. This makes me wonder if they are silver duckwing with autosomal red from the gold duckwing. They are also e+, so that might be something to check out for chick down.

An observation I have had is it seems like the affects of this combination produce a stronger gold color on smaller breeds, and a lighter cream color on larger. This is pure speculation and I am sure there is more to it like potentially feather quality and other enhancers, however it feels like there is a threshold and a concentration required to show through the silver.

On your final speculation, it made me think of something I've read here about blue egg layers. I've heard in blue egg laying breeds, the pullet's first eggs and bantam eggs are typically more intensely colored than those of larger breeds. This would be due to the pigments being more concentrated over a smaller area. Maybe some one with more experience here could chime in here. It could be that the same could be happening with red pigments in feathers, but again this is more speculation.

 

[ArthedainIV]

View attachment 3797254

this guy is super unique.

I would agree he is silver. I don’t see any other way he would get this phenotype considering the breast, light to dark where the black would be wing gradient and black tail color.

i think his cockerel’s tails are interesting. We really only see that lacing affect on the sickle feathers in pencilled hamburgs to my knowledge. But even then I have not seen it be this clean looking.

The only comments I have on the pullets right now are that they confirm to me the resemblance of the penciled Hamburg genotype on the cockerels. We can see that on the back of the lighter one towards the tail where we would assume Db is melanizing more, a traverse penciling pattern from inherited Pg is Present. As for the darker stippled one I think we’re probably just seeing some het columbian and melanotic effects?

I don’t have any developed thoughts on the chick down photo currently.

Thanks for sharing these! Do you no longer have the father?