The "Ask Anything" to Nicalandia Thread

[NatJ]

I'm trying to figure out if these birds are silver, and if they are, what the silver carrying hens look like as adults....If I understand correctly, if it's silver then all the hens are likely to be tri-color even though I did get one almost all white hen in this trio I'm asking about. Do I understand correctly that most silver hens are nearly normal colored?

There is a gene called Silver.
There is a color pattern called "Silver" (Silver Phoenix, Silver Ameraucana, etc.)

Which one are you asking about?

 

[ChicksnMore]

There is a gene called Silver.
There is a color pattern called "Silver" (Silver Phoenix, Silver Ameraucana, etc.)

Which one are you asking about?

The gene and the pattern I think. I'd like to know if the silver gene or another gene is creating the look of those birds.

Editing to try to clarify. I'm trying to figure out what gene is creating the look of these birds. If I know which gene, it might help me figure out how to identify which birds are carrying it without breeding as many birds to learn that. Any information about what genes can create that look/pattern would be really helpful.

 

[NatJ]

The gene and the pattern I think. I'd like to know if the silver gene or another gene is creating the look of those birds.

The silver gene makes all the gold or red parts of a chicken be white instead.

You can see this clearly in breeds like Silver Laced Wyandottes and Gold Laced Wyandottes. The Silver Laced Wyandottes have the Silver gene, the Gold Laced Wyandottes have the gold gene.

Gold can be lighter (Buff or Cream) or darker (Red or Mahogany). In your last photo, the chick in the front has the gold gene (feathers showing a pattern of brown and black.)

Because the silver/gold gene is on the Z sex chromosome, a hen only has one of it. She is either silver or gold but never both. (A hen has sex chromosomes ZW.) A rooster has two Z chromosomes. so he can have two gold genes, or two silver genes, or one of each. When a rooster has one each of the silver and gold genes, he looks mostly silver, so silver is considered the dominant gene. But a silver rooster who carries gold can show a yellowish or creamy appearance (which I see in at least one of adults in your photo.)

Most of the birds in your photos have the silver gene.

As regards the color pattern:
Silver Ameraucanas and Silver Phoenix have a color pattern that is sometimes called Duckwing, sometimes called wild-type, and sometimes other names. That basic color pattern can have silver (Silver Duckwing Old English Game) or it can have gold of one shade or another (like Black Breasted Red Old English Game).

But there are a few points that make this more complicated:
--chickens with the silver gene can show some red/brown color anyway (salmon breast on Silver Duckwing hens, red in the shoulders of many roosters especially if they are from a mix of breeds, and the yellowish/creamy color in some roosters that carry the gold gene.)

--"Silver" has many meanings when it is in the breed name of a chicken.
"Silver Ameraucana" is Silver Duckwing color.
"Silver Campine" is one kind of pencilled pattern.
"Silver Sebright" has black lacing on the silver ground color.

--Pattern names for chickens can have many names as well. The "duckwing" color pattern can also be called wild-type (because it is the basic pattern of the wild junglefowl ancestors of chickens.) A duckwing-patterned chicken with red in the coloring can be called a "Black Breasted Red." The chickens called "Brown Leghorns" and "Welsummers" also have the basic duckwing pattern. And I've read that in some parts of the world, that color pattern is called "Partridge," which in the USA means something different.

(For examples of breeds and varieties, I am mostly getting them from the list here:
https://amerpoultryassn.com/accepted-breeds-varieties/
That is the list of breeds and varieties accepted by the American Poultry Association.
Then I look up photos of them if I don't already know what they look like.)

Editing to try to clarify. I'm trying to figure out what gene is creating the look of these birds. If I know which gene, it might help me figure out how to identify which birds are carrying it without breeding as many birds to learn that. Any information about what genes can create that look/pattern would be really helpful.

For any specific chicken, there are usually a large number of genes that are involved in making it look that way.

Have you played with the chicken calculator? You can change the genes in the dropdown boxes, and the little pictures of chickens will change too.
http://kippenjungle.nl/chickencalculator.html

The e-locus gene (first drop-down box in the gene list) has a big effect on where the chicken can have red vs. black color. Yours might have duckwing (e+ wild-type), or wheaten (E^Wh) or something else. They definitely do not have E (Extended Black), and I am fairly sure they do not have E^R (Birchen) either.

Silver vs. gold (symbol S for Silver or s+ for gold) turns gold into silver, but does not change where the black is on the chicken.

Columbian (Co) affects where the black is (removes some, and what black is left will tend to be on the neck, tail, and big feathers in the wings.)

The pattern gene (Pg) moves black around. It works with several other genes to make designs like lacing, spangling, and penciling.

Mottling (mo) will put white dots on the tips of feathers, with a bit of black behind that tip, and then the rest of the feather color is determined by what other genes the chicken has.

There are many other genes as well, but those are some of the ones I think are most likely to be involved in the coloring of your chickens.

Many of the other genes are clearly not present in your chickens (examples: Dominant White turns black into white, Barring puts white lines across the feathers, Mahogany makes gold shades into darker red shades-- the photos make it pretty clear that none of those are present.)

The birds come from blue Olandsk dwarf breeding and all the parent birds were tri-color.

What do you mean by "tri-color"? What three colors? Can you post a photo?

I am visualizing something like a Mille Fleur coloring, with lots of gold and some dots of black and white. But my idea might be very different than what you actually mean.

Do I understand correctly that most silver hens are nearly normal colored?

Since Olandsk Dwarf chickens can come in a variety of colors, I do not know what you would consider "normal" for the breed, or for chickens in general. Do you have a photo of what you are thinking of?

I bred those three together and got 4 chicks. 2 all white (not yellow but white down) and 2 pale chipmunk. The white ones are feathering out with black and brown mixed feathers so far and the chipmunk are looking standard dwarf so far.View attachment 3692649

Is that enough information to tell if the colors silver or something else? If it is silver, then will my few chicks allow me to figure out what silver carrying hens look like in dwarfs (assuming I have a girl) or would I need more chicks for that?

Editing to add a question about that mostly white girl from the trio. Is a silver hen that's mostly white carrying the Columbian gene? I'm assuming the mostly white breasted boy has Columbian and the black breasted boy is black breasted red duckwing. Does that sound right?

I will have to think about these parts some more later. I'm out of time for now.

 

[ChicksnMore]

What do you mean by "tri-color"? What three colors? Can you post a photo?

Since Olandsk Dwarf chickens can come in a variety of colors, I do not know what you would consider "normal" for the breed, or for chickens in general. Do you have a photo of what you are thinking of?

You're a blessing by the way!

Here are pics of my flock. My apologies for not using correct terms. I'm still learning to think in those words as well as learning the correct words to use. By tri-color I mean each bird carries some version of red/brown, white mottling and black pattern and/or spangles. I believe they're all wild type/bbr/duckwing with some Columbian and Millie fluer. Can't miss the mottling and think I see spangles in some. Hope I'm not overdoing the pictures.

Then there's the blues. My blue breeding have produced some differently colored/patterned birds. Most of them look like the above with blue, but I do have a few paler ones like this hen (no roosters like this but several hens) that I thought might carry silver. So far all chicks from her to the silver boys have had yellow down instead of white down and I expected them to all be white down because I was thinking homogeneous silver roos over a hemizygous hen. They haven't grown up enough to see the adult coloring, but I'm back to trying to figure out which hen is carrying silver because I wonder if I got it wrong.

This rooster I believe is the dad of all the silver babies I got.

In addition, the blue breeding have produced these two roosters. These definitely came from the above rooster. No hens like them though so far. Playing with the kippenjungle calculator makes me think these are splash birds. I'm thinking two blue genes plus mahogany and silver produced this color.

My kippenjungle input was the below; set for both roo and hen (S/- hen). The roo doesn't quite look like the parent roo of these two birds (my roo has a dark head with a small paler fringe at the base), but the expected offspring were predicted to look like my above boys and were splash.

So I'm thinking theres mahogany in my birds turning what should be gold in the roo to what my boy looks like. And I'm wondering if the hens like the next picture could be the silver carriers (or Columbian without Millie? Or silver plus Columbian without Millie?) or if it is the pale colored ones I'm already trying. I'm also wondering if I can figure out which birds are carrying mahogany without test breeding all my hens back to the one roo I believe must carry it. Then breeding the hens with mahogany back to the roos to find the mahogany carrying roos.

For the silver carrying hens...am I understanding silver enough when thinking that my silver carrying hens should be paler versions of non-silver hens? I've never owned silver birds so I'm just reading and looking at pictures to help me figure out tells.

I understand landrace mutt birds are awful to try to figure out genes...but I really want to try. I just love these guys and think they might be my forever birds. But I also have way too many birds and need to get rid of some. I don't want to lose the birds that breed my favorites. I know I want to keep mahogany and I'm still deciding what I think of the silver gene, but I think I want to lose silver.

 

[ChicksnMore]

Almost forgot to add a picture of what I think is spangle. I do see fine white edges so not sure.

 

[NatJ]

Almost forgot to add a picture of what I think is spangle. I do see fine white edges so not sure.

I think that is more likely to be caused by the mottling gene.

My apologies for not using correct terms. I'm still learning to think in those words as well as learning the correct words to use.

Even if you use the "correct" terms, it can still be confusing. That's why I asked for clarification

There are too many terms that have multiple meanings. For example, a "spangled" Hamburg has the pattern gene with some other genes making black dots on the tips of the feathers. But a "spangled" Old English Game Bantam has the mottling gene making white tips on the feathers, with black behind that, and various amounts of red and black in the rest of the feathers. They have very different genetics involved, and they do not even look alike, but they are called by the same name.

There are many colors and varieties that were named when people had no idea of the genetics involved, and then the names kept being used. And sometimes people called the same color by differnet names, or used one name for chickens that looked alike but had different genetics (obvious example: a "white" chicken is easy to recognize, but there are several different genes or combinations of genes that can cause that appearance.)

By tri-color I mean each bird carries some version of red/brown, white mottling and black pattern and/or spangles. I believe they're all wild type/bbr/duckwing with some Columbian and Millie fluer. Can't miss the mottling and think I see spangles in some. Hope I'm not overdoing the pictures.

OK, that makes sense. The pictures definitely help.

I think the "spangling" is probably an effect of the mottling gene. If I am right about that, it would not be something that needs to be considered separately.

Then there's the blues. My blue breeding have produced some differently colored/patterned birds. Most of them look like the above with blue, but I do have a few paler ones like this hen (no roosters like this but several hens) that I thought might carry silver.

A silver hen can still have a salmon-colored breast, but should not have gold color on the rest of her body.

That hen definitely has some gold color on the feathers of her back, so I think she probably does not have the silver gene.

A hen does not really "carry" the silver gene. She either is silver, or is not silver. That is because she only has one Z chromosome. So either she has silver on there, or she has gold, but never both. (Her other sex chromosome being the W that makes her female.) [Edit: oh, I see that you do have this straight in a later paragraph, when you call her "hemizygous." Good.]

For the large amounts of white on that hen, I have two guesses:
--it might be caused by the mottling gene. Some mottled chickens have much more white than others.
--it might be splash, caused by two copies of the blue gene.
(Of course it is also possible for both of those to be true at the same time.)

So far all chicks from her to the silver boys have had yellow down instead of white down and I expected them to all be white down because I was thinking homogeneous silver roos over a hemizygous hen. They haven't grown up enough to see the adult coloring, but I'm back to trying to figure out which hen is carrying silver because I wonder if I got it wrong.

I agree with the logic.
A rooster who is homozygous for silver (two copies of the silver gene)
with a hen who is hemizygous for silver (one copy of the silver gene is the most she can ever have)
should produce chicks that are pure for silver.

I've seen some chicks with silver that have yellow in their down, so I would definitely watch to see what colors they grow in their feathers.

This rooster I believe is the dad of all the silver babies I got.

Based on appearance, I would expect him to be homozygous gold (pure for gold.)

Crossing him to a silver hen should produce sexlink chicks: gold daughters and silver-carrying-gold sons.

If that is what you got, then I think there must be a silver hen in the flock somwhere, so the trouble is to recognize her!

Now I know what you meant by this question:

I'm trying to figure out if these birds are silver, and if they are, what the silver carrying hens look like as adults... If I understand correctly, if it's silver then all the hens are likely to be tri-color even though I did get one almost all white hen in this trio I'm asking about. Do I understand correctly that most silver hens are nearly normal colored?

To try to find the Silver hen(s), I would look at the feathers on their backs and sides (not breasts), and see if you can find any that do not have gold (red or brown are also "gold" for this purpose.)

In addition, the blue breeding have produced these two roosters. These definitely came from the above rooster. No hens like them though so far. Playing with the kippenjungle calculator makes me think these are splash birds. I'm thinking two blue genes plus mahogany and silver produced this color.

I think you are probably right. The father definitely has blue, which means he can produce splash when mated to a blue hen, and those two do look splash.

Yes, silver would remove the gold color, leaving white.
Yes, they would probably still have red leakage, and the Mahogany gene would make it darker and more obvious. That seems to fit what I see in the photos.

My kippenjungle input was the below; set for both roo and hen (S/- hen). The roo doesn't quite look like the parent roo of these two birds (my roo has a dark head with a small paler fringe at the base), but the expected offspring were predicted to look like my above boys and were splash.

Hmm. I would have thought your rooster (father of those two) was just gold, not silver. But I supposed he could be silver/gold split, with large amounts of leakage.

If the rooster is homozygous gold (s+/s+) and the hen is hemizygous silver (S/_), then their daughters would be gold (s+/_) and their sons would be heterozygous silver (S/s+).

But if the rooster is actually heterozygous silver/gold (S/s+) like you set the calculator, and the hen is still hemizygous silver (S/_), then some sons could be homozygous silver (S/S) while some other sons could be heterozygous silver (S/s+). Daughters could be hemizygous silver (S/_) or hemizygous gold (s+/_)

If the rooster is actually a heterozygote (S/s+), then that could be why you have so far not found a silver hen: there might not be one.

So I'm thinking theres mahogany in my birds turning what should be gold in the roo to what my boy looks like.

Mahogany can affect gold caused by the gold gene (like on the backs of the hens, and on the breasts of some roosters.) I'm fairly sure Mahogany can also affect red/gold that appears even in silver chickens: wings/shoulders of males, hackle & saddle of males, "salmon" breast of females.

For an extreme example, I've read that Salmon Faverolles are genetically silver with Mahogany. They sure don't look white! I suppose you might have something similar going on with some of your chickens, with more red/brown/salmon shades than would usually be normal in silver chickens.

And I'm wondering if the hens like the next picture could be the silver carriers (or Columbian without Millie? Or silver plus Columbian without Millie?)

I would not think so, because of the amount of gold in the wings and back. That looks like a gold hen to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Millie."
If you mean the Mille Fleur color (like in d'Uccles), that usually involves gold, Columbian, and mottling. I think Mille Fleur d'Uccles are typically E^Wh (Wheaten) rather than e+ (Duckwing/wild type), but I've seen Mille Fleur Old English bantams that were definitely based on e+ (judging by the chipmunk-stripes in the chicks.)

or if it is the pale colored ones I'm already trying.

I think the pale ones are more likely to have Silver, unless it turns out that the Silver is actually coming from your rooster and not from any of the hens at all.

I'm also wondering if I can figure out which birds are carrying mahogany without test breeding all my hens back to the one roo I believe must carry it. Then breeding the hens with mahogany back to the roos to find the mahogany carrying roos.

From what I've read, Mahogany should be a dominant gene.
I think you just need to look at which ones have rich red/brown shades (Mahogany) and which ones have lighter gold/buff shades (not Mahogany.)

For the silver carrying hens...am I understanding silver enough when thinking that my silver carrying hens should be paler versions of non-silver hens? I've never owned silver birds so I'm just reading and looking at pictures to help me figure out tells.

Silver hens "should" have all gold/red/brown shades replaced with white, with the one exception that breasts can still be a salmon color. (I keep seeing people call it "salmon." To me, it looks like part of the gold/red/brown spectrum of chicken colors, although I have sometimes noticed it to be a slightly different shade-- maybe shifted a little bit more pink than the colors that appear on other parts of the chicken. So maybe that's why it is given a different name.)

I understand landrace mutt birds are awful to try to figure out genes...but I really want to try.

It is definitely more complicated than figuring out the genes of some other chickens.
Whether that is fun or annoying depends on the person, and at least for me is sometimes depends on my mood as well (it could be "Big puzzle! Yay! Fun!" or "you want to figure out WHAT?!" for the very same question, at different times. That is true whether it's someone else's question or even a question of my own that I am trying to figure out.)

I just love these guys and think they might be my forever birds. But I also have way too many birds and need to get rid of some. I don't want to lose the birds that breed my favorites. I know I want to keep mahogany and I'm still deciding what I think of the silver gene, but I think I want to lose silver.

Yes, that is a good reason to figure it out.

If you want to keep Mahogany but get rid of silver, at least for hens: keep ones that have a nice amount of gold or red in their back & wing feathers. Ignore the breast color, and the amounts of black and white.

For roosters, I'm not as sure, because of how much leakage can happen even in Silver roosters, and because even roosters without Mahogany can show some dark red in their shoulders and saddles.

 

[ChicksnMore]

Thank you for an incredible answer! That's a lot to digest and I'm going to have to re-read it a few times to absorb it all...for me at the moment, that's a pleasure !

If the rooster is homozygous gold (s+/s+) and the hen is hemizygous silver (S/_), then their daughters would be gold (s+/_) and their sons would be heterozygous silver (S/s+).

But if the rooster is actually heterozygous silver/gold (S/s+) like you set the calculator, and the hen is still hemizygous silver (S/_), then some sons could be homozygous silver (S/S) while some other sons could be heterozygous silver (S/s+). Daughters could be hemizygous silver (S/_) or hemizygous gold (s+/_)

If the rooster is actually a heterozygote (S/s+), then that could be why you have so far not found a silver hen: there might not be one.

So does the hen in this picture mean the roo has to be S/s? She's one of the oddball birds hatched from the same mating as these two boys. Sorry I don't have a better picture of her, but you can barely see her behind the boys.

At this point I'm thinking the Columbian roo is S/s, the wild type roo is S/S and the hen is S/-. Does that sound likely? The Columbian roo always had some gold from hatch on. The other two were pure white and black for most of their juvenile stage, then developed brown flecks here and there. Is there a way to tell if he's silver with leakage or gold?

If the wild type roo is homozygous silver, then I'm back to there has to be a silver hen?

I'd sure love it if only that one roo carries silver.

--it might be splash, caused by two copies of the blue gene.

I've been wondering where my splash are from blue breeding and only have the two red and white roosters that I look at and see splash. I think I'll try breeding my blues with the darkest red and see what I get. That should remove the chance of silver and hopefully include mahogany. I really hope she is splash...I think she's beautiful.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Millie."
If you mean the Mille Fleur color (like in d'Uccles), that usually involves gold, Columbian, and mottling. I think Mille Fleur d'Uccles are typically E^Wh (Wheaten) rather than e+ (Duckwing/wild type), but I've seen Mille Fleur Old English bantams that were definitely based on e+ (judging by the chipmunk-stripes in the chicks

I've been thinking of Millie fluer as a pattern laid over Columbian. I get two different type hens in the pale gold color. One type has all gold body's with white and black tipped feathers and one type has all gold body's with white only tipped feathers. The two types both have black, but how its distributed looks different. I've been thinking of them as Columbian with Millie fluer and Columbian without Millie fluer. Would it be more accurate to say Millie fluer and mottled Columbian?

Silver hens "should" have all gold/red/brown shades replaced with white, with the one exception that breasts can still be a salmon color.

I don't think I have any hens that fit that but I'll be going out in a bit and looking hard at my hens. I think it must be there or that wild type roo must be S/s.

If you want to keep Mahogany but get rid of silver, at least for hens: keep ones that have a nice amount of gold or red in their back & wing feathers. Ignore the breast color, and the amounts of black and white.

For roosters, I'm not as sure, because of how much leakage can happen even in Silver roosters, and because even roosters without Mahogany can show some dark red in their shoulders and saddles.

That's a good place to start. Thank you again for so much help!

 

[NatJ]

Thank you for an incredible answer! That's a lot to digest and I'm going to have to re-read it a few times to absorb it all...for me at the moment, that's a pleasure !

And hopefully if I said anything wrong, someone else will point it out so you and I can both learn more

So does the hen in this picture mean the roo has to be S/s? She's one of the oddball birds hatched from the same mating as these two boys. Sorry I don't have a better picture of her, but you can barely see her behind the boys.

Maybe? I'm not entirely sure. I don't really see any gold, but as you say it isn't a particularly good picture of her. I assume she's the one you no longer have.

At this point I'm thinking the Columbian roo is S/s, the wild type roo is S/S and the hen is S/-. Does that sound likely? The Columbian roo always had some gold from hatch on. The other two were pure white and black for most of their juvenile stage, then developed brown flecks here and there. Is there a way to tell if he's silver with leakage or gold?

That sounds reasonable to me, for all three of them.

Looking "pure white" for most of their juvenile stage, then developing brown flecks, definitely sounds to me like silver with leakage.

If the wild type roo is homozygous silver, then I'm back to there has to be a silver hen?

Yes, if he is homozygous silver, he must have a silver mother.

I've been wondering where my splash are from blue breeding and only have the two red and white roosters that I look at and see splash. I think I'll try breeding my blues with the darkest red and see what I get. That should remove the chance of silver and hopefully include mahogany. I really hope she is splash...I think she's beautiful.

That sounds like a sensible thing to try.

Having mottling can definitely make it harder to sort blue from splash.

I've been thinking of Millie fluer as a pattern laid over Columbian. I get two different type hens in the pale gold color. One type has all gold body's with white and black tipped feathers and one type has all gold body's with white only tipped feathers. The two types both have black, but how its distributed looks different. I've been thinking of them as Columbian with Millie fluer and Columbian without Millie fluer. Would it be more accurate to say Millie fluer and mottled Columbian?

Interesting point about the two types.
I think Mille Fleur basically is mottled buff columbian, so I'm not really sure what is causing the difference in your birds.

I don't think I have any hens that fit that but I'll be going out in a bit and looking hard at my hens. I think it must be there or that wild type roo must be S/s.

Yes, I think those are the only real options: either he had a silver mother (and you want to find who she was), or the hens are all gold and he cannot possibly be S/S.

That's a good place to start. Thank you again for so much help!

You're welcome

 

[ChicksnMore]

@NatJ Finally got to spend enough time staring at my girls to tentatively think maybe I have it. I have a blue girl with an almost all blue/white stripe down her back and her sides are the same. She does have red in her wings and tail though. Her head is also all black and white, where as most have red and white heads

This is her.

Here's a picture of a similar pale hen but with some red in her back and this one has even more red in her sides and red in her head

And here's a dark hen from a blue breeding. Not sure if she actually carries blue because she's very dark, but her sides have a lot of grey so think she's dark blue. Definitely from a blue breeding though. Her color distribution is what most my hens have.

Is that first hen a good possibility for silver, or does the red in wings and tail make it unlikely?

 

[NatJ]

I have a blue girl with an almost all blue/white stripe down her back and her sides are the same. She does have red in her wings and tail though. Her head is also all black and white, where as most have red and white heads

This is her.
View attachment 3694739View attachment 3694741

...Is that first hen a good possibility or does the red in wings and tail make it unlikely?

I would not expect that much red in the wings and tail of a hen with the silver gene. I would think she probably has the gold gene anyway.

But I could be wrong.

Maybe @nicalandia or someone else will chime in with an opinion on this.