trying to pin down what would go into making a "colored Dorking"

[ki4got]

here's a pic of one off the Dorking Breeder's club website...


I'm trying to figure out what genetics are involved with this, and how I would go about getting one that breeds true each time.
right now nearly all the "colored" dorkings available don't breed true apparently, and there is a lot of variation within the lines.

the other colors Dorkings are available in are red (mahogany bbr i believe) and silver grey (silver duckwing). I'm willing to try crossing between these colors and spending generations on this to see what comes out of it all.

I don't know much about the various colors in other breeds, but reading around it seems like maybe it's a dilute? but with something else combined maybe? I'm thinking because of the variable results the dilutes may have been bred with the reds, so you've got the mahogany being combined with dilute now and then, resulting in basically something along the lines of a BBR (faded mahogany?) I don't know the right terminology used in poultry, but it would be akin to the silvers in poodles. homozygous is a true silver, heterozygous results in a blue, and no silver gene at all is a black... I've always just referred to it as a 'fading' gene, since it lightens whatever base color was there originally. (combine silver and brown in poodles, you get cafe au lait and silver beige - single and double factor respectively). similar also to buckskin/palomino in horses (depending on bay or chestnut lines) a single factor lightening the color by 1 step, and double lightening even further (cremello).

so someone help me out here? help me figure out where to start and what to plan for? I'm waiting on chicks (colored and red) from sandhill preservation center, and already have silver greys. my ultimate goal here is to have true breeding birds of all 3 colors, and to improve on size and conformation of all 3 varieties, but if that involves crossing colors to get a "colored" line to eventually breed true, i'm all for it. the reds and silver greys already breed true, but have their own issues in other respects.

 

[Illia]

I don't know what Coloreds truly are genetically, (besides duckwing) in fact even reading their standard and trying to paint it was kinda confusing, but, once seeing photos I'm sure what we're looking at is either A) simply (melanized?) golden duckwing males and ? melanized duckwing females B) the same thing that makes Salmon Faverolles' male coloration breed true - Silver and the Mahogany gene, or C) homozygous gold duckwings with the dilute gene.

If B, then the thing to do is get Reds, cross them with Silvers, and take the silver or golden colored F1's and breed them together, and choose out the best from there. You're eyeing for homozygous silver and homozygous Mahogany. The females will look kind of like a silver duckwing but deeper in color, and the males will look like a washed golden duckwing but with decently colorful wings. Make sure that the offspring you choose don't produce any homozygous golds though, that's a sign that the male you chose was wrong.

I really don't know though. I've seen photos of several examples of both genders and some look like simple golden duckwings, others look like melanized, mahogany/red silver duckwing females, others look like something else.

The curious thing to me is that the SOP calls for extra black tips and shafting in certain places that often signify melanizer, but, melanizer usually resorts to a color commonly called brassy-back.

 

[ki4got]

well i was playing with the genetics calculator at kippenjungle (sp?) and it looked like simple dilute possibly, but then i saw a 'cream' dutch i think, that looked like what i had pictured in my mind for the colored sop...

I plan to breed silver and red together (red is mahogany i believe), to see what we got, because the silver may also have dilute, if it's in the breed at all, which might help lighten the silver somewhat. some lines have a bit of variation in the colors. Sand Hill's birds are reported to vary a bit even within single color lines, so that may have resulted in crossing colors at one time. but I need to get some red and colored chicks to work with first. thus i'm waiting on an order from sand hill preservation center... and tapping my feet impatiently.

so in the meantime i can research, ask questions, and formulate theories and plans. LOL

 

[nicalandia]

well i was playing with the genetics calculator at kippenjungle (sp?) and it looked like simple dilute possibly, but then i saw a 'cream' dutch i think, that looked like what i had pictured in my mind for the colored sop...

I plan to breed silver and red together (red is mahogany i believe), to see what we got, because the silver may also have dilute, if it's in the breed at all, which might help lighten the silver somewhat. some lines have a bit of variation in the colors. Sand Hill's birds are reported to vary a bit even within single color lines, so that may have resulted in crossing colors at one time. but I need to get some red and colored chicks to work with first. thus i'm waiting on an order from sand hill preservation center... and tapping my feet impatiently.

so in the meantime i can research, ask questions, and formulate theories and plans. LOL

what your doing is producing "Golden" Dorkins.. they don´t breed true because you will never be able to hatch golden hens. only boys, and if you follow any other standards, the color of the "Golden" color is a simple silver hen..

why? go back to the genetic calculator.. do you see the S and s+ genes? you can have both genes in boys S/s+ produce "Golden" that looks like Dilute or Cream, but there is no dilute or cream in any of those breeds... now go to the hen side of the equation(calculator) and look for the S or s+ sign. now you can only choose one or the other not both....

 

[nicalandia]

and if you want the Golden color, you could introduce Cream(is recessive) to the dorking line..

its a simple thing to do. get yourself a Cream dutch or cream light brown leghorns and mate them to a Dorking. mate the F1 together and you will get some that look cream...

Cream light brown leghorn..

here is the difference between the recessive "Cream" and "Golden" golden is on the right

 

[ki4got]

what your doing is producing "Golden" Dorkins.. they don´t breed true because you will never be able to hatch golden hens. only boys, and if you follow any other standards, the color of the "Golden" color is a simple silver hen..

why? go back to the genetic calculator.. do you see the S and s+ genes? you can have both genes in boys S/s+ produce "Golden" that looks like Dilute or Cream, but there is no dilute or cream in any of those breeds... now go to the hen side of the equation(calculator) and look for the S or s+ sign. now you can only choose one or the other not both....

so what would you say is involved in the birds i linked above? apparently that color is supposed to breed true, but hasn't in recent years because of mixing the color lines.
that's what i'm trying to figure out, what the genetics of colored dorking *IS*. i don't really care what it isn't, I was just playing with the calculator and making guesses. but if you know what i'm likely to be working with, that's what i want to know.

 

[nicalandia]

so what would you say is involved in the birds i linked above? apparently that color is supposed to breed true, but hasn't in recent years because of mixing the color lines.
that's what i'm trying to figure out, what the genetics of colored dorking *IS*. i don't really care what it isn't, I was just playing with the calculator and making guesses. but if you know what i'm likely to be working with, that's what i want to know.

the first boy you posted is "Golden" with Mahogany in it.

what is genetic make up? he is e+/e+ Mh/Mh S/s+ .... That´s all. you can breed him to a normal dorking hen or a silver dorking hen and you will produce, red hens, silver hens and 50% of the boys will be eather silver(if crossed with silver hens, 50% Red of crossed with red hens) and 50% Golden just like him...

let me find that calculator...

 

[nicalandia]

Ok here it is... From: http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

 

[tadkerson]

Dorking are silver with an autosomal gene that adds red. The gene that causes the red in salmon faverolle is called Dk a red pigment enhancing gene. Salmon faverolle are silver wheaten and the colored dorking is wild type. The trouble with red enhancers is that they a quirky and you do not always get the same expression in birds. I have seen this in my birds.

Tim

 

[ki4got]

i would disagree that the colored is a golden/yellow... the color has and should breed true each and every time. colored hens are distinct from red or silver hens, as are the cocks.

I guess to pin it down I'm just going to have to wait until i get my birds and grow them out and start getting chicks, and i won't cross breed birds, just to produce a color that already exists in the breed.