Update -- sexing "production reds"?

[obdormition]

Hi everyone, we posted here about a month ago asking about sexes of our chickens that were labeled as production reds from TSC. They're about 1.5-2 months old now and would like your opinions again.

One is obviously a starlight green egger (below), which we believe is a pullet. Can anyone help us with seeing for 2, 3, 4, and 5? We are certain that 2 and 3 are Roos, and one of them has begun trying to crow. Not sure about 4 and about 5, which appears to be a RIR. In online pictures, production hens appear to have tall, bright red combs too, so we are having a tough time with the big ones.

Thanks!

 

[NatJ]

They're about 1.5-2 months old now

We are certain that 2 and 3 are Roos, and one of them has begun trying to crow. Not sure about 4 and about 5, which appears to be a RIR. In online pictures, production hens appear to have tall, bright red combs too, so we are having a tough time with the big ones.

I think 2, 3, 4, and 5 are all males.

At age 1.5 to 2 months, males tend to have large red combs but females tend not to.

Females usually have small pale combs until they get close to laying age (4+ months), and then their combs grow bigger and redder to match the adults you found in pictures.

 

[BastyPutt]

I think 2, 3, 4, and 5 are all males.

At age 1.5 to 2 months, males tend to have large red combs but females tend not to.

Females usually have small pale combs until they get close to laying age (4+ months), and then their combs grow bigger and redder to match the adults you found in pictures.

Agree

I can't see 1 well enough to tell anything.

Kind of some interesting mixes there. None of them are production reds, because they would actually be white and they aren't RIR because of some of that speckling and hackles you see on 4 and 5. They look to maybe be an Easter egger?! No idea.

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

Agree

I can't see 1 well enough to tell anything.

Kind of some interesting mixes there. None of them are production reds, because they would actually be white and they aren't RIR because of some of that speckling and hackles you see on 4 and 5. They look to maybe be an Easter egger?! No idea.

Production reds aren’t the same as red sex links, both males and females are red (they’re a New Hampshire red x Rhode Island red cross).

 

[BastyPutt]

Production reds aren’t the same as red sex links, both males and females are red (they’re a New Hampshire red x Rhode Island red cross).

I had no idea there was something actually called a "production red" after all these years. I thought it was another term for a red sex link.

I suppose that somewhat explains the hackles. Seems like a silly cross though. Breed two productive red birds? Not seeing too much justification for it either? What am I missing?

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

I had no idea there was something actually called a "production red" after all these years. I thought it was another term for a red sex link.

I suppose that somewhat explains the hackles. Seems like a silly cross though. Breed two productive red birds? Not seeing too much justification for it either? What am I missing?

Yeah, I don’t really see the point either. They’re basically Rhode Island reds with some extra hybrid vigor.

 

[NatJ]

Breed two productive red birds? Not seeing too much justification for it either? What am I missing?

The basic idea is to select purely for egg production, while caring less about appearance traits (like being the "right" shade of red.)

When I think of the confusion caused by Americanas (Easter Eggers) not being Ameraucanas (pure breed), and the complaints that hatcheries are being deliberately deceptive, I am very glad that Production Reds have a distinct name of their own. We know what to call them, we can look up information about them, and they are not pretending to be anything else.

 

[BastyPutt]

The basic idea is to select purely for egg production, while caring less about appearance traits (like being the "right" shade of red.)

When I think of the confusion caused by Americanas (Easter Eggers) not being Ameraucanas (pure breed), and the complaints that hatcheries are being deliberately deceptive, I am very glad that Production Reds have a distinct name of their own. We know what to call them, we can look up information about them, and they are not pretending to be anything else.

I was typing a bunch out, wondering why a hatchery would use "breeding space" on a version of a production bird that is "lesser" than another because it isnt auto-sexing - and answered my own question in the process.... because people like it and it works for them.

You don't question a car manufacturer why they make 2WD cars instead of making everything 4WD. Some people would just prefer the 2WD.

In terms of sexing - most hatcheries claim a 90% accuracy. This means 10% of the unwanted roosters make it into the marketplace. That is 10% that the hatchery doesn't need to figure out how to dispose of or repurpose. With an auto-sexed breed, I'm sure it saves on a cost because they don't need to be meticulously sexed, but you end up with more "waste" and most SL cockerels are completely undesirable. So a PR could make more financial sense for a hatchery in this way. Not sure if that makes sense, but it did in my head!

 

[NatJ]

In terms of sexing - most hatcheries claim a 90% accuracy. This means 10% of the unwanted roosters make it into the marketplace. That is 10% that the hatchery doesn't need to figure out how to dispose of or repurpose.

But it goes the other way too. 10% of the pullets may get disposed of as cockerels. So they may be disposing of the same total number of chicks in either case.

With an auto-sexed breed, I'm sure it saves on a cost because they don't need to be meticulously sexed, but you end up with more "waste" and most SL cockerels are completely undesirable. So a PR could make more financial sense for a hatchery in this way.

Autosexing and sexlink are not the same thing.

Autosexing are the ones that breed true, and you can sex them by color in every generation (examples: Cream Legbar, Bielefelder.) But if you do not specifically select for ones that can be sexed accurately, you end up with some chicks with in-between colorations. Some hatcheries have been sending out "autosexing" chicks that cannot be reliably sexed by color, so I think they must be vent-sexing them. I assume they do whatever is cost-effective, so if they are not using the auto-sexing traits to actually sex the chicks, they presumably have a good reason (maybe the autosexing isn't working well enough, so they don't use it, so they don't select for it, so it doesn't work well, which is a hopeless circle.)

Sexlinks are when you cross one breed or color with a different breed or color, and get chicks that can be sexed in that generation only. You have to keep a breeding flock of each kind, to produce the same cross in later years. So sexlinks require someone to maintain three breeder flocks: one for the father breed, one for the mother breed, and one to produce the actual chicks.

Sexing on the sexlinks is not 100% accurate either. There are some red/yellow chicks that are in the middle (either light females or dark males). There are some black chicks that might have a yellow dot on the head (male) but it's so small it's easy to miss and they get put in the female bin. The yellow dot is harder to see on lighter chick down, so blue sexlinks are harder to sex than black ones.

 

[house1917]

Out of left field- but are these maybe mislabeled Red Rangers instead of Production Reds? They seem like pretty hefty boys for their age. Just a Saturday night thought after two glasses of wine!