WILL A SELF-BLUE BANTAM COCHIN GOING TO PRODUCE BLUE, SPLASH, AND BLACK WHEN BRED WITH ANOTHER SELF

[junebuggena]

My question was directed at EggheadJr.

Doesn't make my answer any less relevant. A genetically Blue bird, without the darker edging is still Blue. It can not be labeled 'self blue' because it will not reproduce like a 'self blue'.

 

[Wappoke]

Doesn't make my answer any less relevant. A genetically Blue bird, without the darker edging is still Blue. It can not be labeled 'self blue' because it will not reproduce like a 'self blue'.

I did not say your answer is less relevant. But I would take exception to the blue gene being dominant , it is incompletely dominant.

The term self refers to the plumage color of the bird and is not used to describe phenotypic outcomes.

Please see post # 8- I edited the post.

The paper by Lippincott indicates historically how the term has been used in the past.

Most of the individuals that post on this website would agree with you and EggheadJr but I do not. I am not going to convince you or Egghead and you are not going to change my position.

I worked with the blue allele for a few years and have a hypothesis that the hue of the blue color and the presence of edging are dependent upon other genes and not expressed by the blue allele.

Take a look at the following females;











These are all genetically blue but they differ in hue, especially the last photo.

Males

 

[Egghead_Jr]

The lacing is a different gene loci. What I was saying is blue by description also should carry the lacing gene. A Blue (not lavender) bird should be laced. A bird of blue genetics without lacing is a very poor quality mutt and should not be used for breeding. The biggest problem with the blue variety is it's popular and has been in the hands of people that have bred out the lacing gene completely in their flocks. Lacing will express though to lesser degree with one of two loci being positive. If two single copy lacing birds are bred then half of the offspring are absent of lacing and it doesn't take long to lose it completely from the flock. By definition all blue birds must be laced. Absence of lacing is of poor quality and breeding practice. With two lacing genes present you'll see lacing in the splash birds. It's quite something to behold.

Depending what colors you use in breeding will result in different degrees of dilution of black in the offspring. With Blue you should always use one blue bird in matings. I know what the standard calls for in color but people have preferences and might as well shoot for what they like to see. Use birds that are close to the end resulting color hue you want. So if your mating with a black you'd use a lighter than desired blue and if mating with splash a darker than desired blue and if two blues you'd want them as close to your desired color as you can with each on opposing sides of it. This is how you can bring a flock of blues to a more uniform coloring.

 

[Wappoke]

Lacing in any breed is due to a bird being homozygous for the pattern gene, homozygous columbian, and homozygous for melanotic- the E locus can vary and some laced birds carry dark brown.

Blue andalusians have the following genotype.

E/E Bl/bl+ Co/Co (Ml‐Pg)/(Ml‐Pg). or E*E/E*E Bl*Bl/Bl*bl Co*Co / Co*Co (Ml*Ml-Pg*PG)/(Ml*Ml-Pg*PG)

A laced bird is not self-blue because it is laced. Self-blue birds can not be laced. Any bird that has blue feathers and no secondary color patterns is self-blue. A self-blue can be hypostatic black and heterozygous at the blue locus or hypostatic black and homozygous lavender.

Most individuals want self-blue to only refer to lavender birds and historically this was not the case. See my earlier posts or information below.


" These facts have led to the current view that the case involves a single allelomorphic pair of characters. The blacks and blue-splashed represent the homozygous conditions, while the self blue is the heterozygote between the two. When blues are interbred, blacks, blues, and blue-splashed are produced in a ratio approximating 1: 2: 1 for these classes, respectively, which seems to corroborate this view."

"Emphasis has usually been laid on their distinctness from the black and the blue-splashed birds, but it seems important to note their resemblance to these two classes. In the first place, they are like the blacks in being self-colored, that is, all feathers in all parts of the body are pigmented."

I have provided a reference for the paper.

Lippincott, W. A. (1918). The case of the Blue Andalusian. American Naturalist, 95-115.


If blue with lacing is blue and lavender is self-blue then what is blue without a secondary color pattern? It has to have a name. How about blue-not-blue or not lavender/not blue color? I do not think the names will catch on.

I like the three below- they work for me.

black laced blue

self blue

lavender

I have posted all I will post on nomenclature.