4 day old vaccinated chick from Ideal, dead from Marek's?

[Kazzandra]

So, just as it says on the tin, today I lost a 4 day old chick (with us for 24 hours-- shipping took longer than usual) from what appeared to be Marek's today. They are inside in my living room, and my flock is outside. Sanitazed cage. Vaccinated by Ideal, and not sure if they're still just using the Turkey herpes or something more complicated, live or dead. I was reading up on Marek's and encountered this quote:
"You must quaranteen newly vaccinated chicks for 10 days so they will not be exposed to the "field" strain, in which case if they are, THEY will die before they have developed immunity."
Mareks Vaccine
The chick presented first symptoms after eating and drinking and sleeping normally for the first day at like 4:30 pm. At 4:30, I kept hearing someone cry infrequently, and noticed she was being stepped on trying to sleep. I picked her up and noticed she her legs were limp and she couldn't stand. No slippery materials are used in my cage, so naturally I'm confused. She's weak and very limp in general. I start going through checklists and searching. I've never had acute Marek's but by the time she starts twisting her neck to the side and gasping, I start thinking it reminds me of the chicken I raised that had Marek's for months but never died of it. She'd have spells that were severe like that and then get slightly better, but never well enough to have any quality of life. Well, this chick was dead by 7 pm (for sure-- could have been a bit earlier, but I was unsure if she was just unresponsive. Didn't want to bury her alive. ;x)

Did she get Marek's from the environment here-- an acute form, at that-- before the 24 hour mark? Please give me your ideas, as I want to make sure the others make it.

 

[WhiteWyan]

I have a hunch that it didn't make it due to extended time in the shipping box. Maybe that one got too chilled. I don't think it's an infectious cause based on what you describe.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I'm sorry for your loss.
It sounds like your chick may have been suffering from shipping stress - she may have also suffered some type of injury during handling of the package. Twisting of the neck can be a number of things at that age - injury or Vitamin E deficiency - she may have also been twisting the neck because she was in the process of dying.
Limp legs - again - shipping stress and injury comes to mind. If they were overdue - then dehydration would also play a part.

To me, it's highly unlikely Marek's was the cause of death.
Vaccinated chicks should have limited exposure to chickens that have the virus for the first couple of weeks (quarantined/brooded separately) so they can build immunity. The vaccine does not prevent infection from the virus, but does prevent formation of tumors. Usually symptoms from Marek's would not present around 10 weeks old.

"""""Because vaccines are administered at hatching and require 1–2 wk to produce an effective immunity, exposure of chickens to virus should be minimized during the first few days after hatching."""" https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms/marek’s-disease-in-poultry

 

[Kazzandra]

I understand shipping stress and dehydration but she was eating and drinking absolutely normally with no symptoms-- I had Polish and other delicate breeds in that box and this was an Ameraucana for crying out loud, that suddenly went from eating and drinking normally to die for no discernible reason. If organ damage or stress was an issue, I would have thought it would have presented earlier than 28 hours after I received them. Of course I used probiotics and electroytes, too, and babied everyone to make sure. One chick was dead in the box due to the PO not calling me on arrival and leaving them in the air conditioning. :^) But one other showed cold stress on arrival and is okay now-- a crevacour. Just really hard to believe a hale and hearty Ameraucana would go like that. Limpness, then favouring one side, and then the neck twisting and gasping, which so reminded me of Marek's.

So am I to understand a chick can't die of Marek's, then-- but can catch it if not properly quarantined, but still will not present symptoms until 10 weeks? Because the chicken I had that my mother finally took to put down started showing symptoms at 6 weeks. I thought it was a deficiency at first and really pumped all sorts of things into her-- the saint john's wort extract being my final try, which did help, but then again it also had alcohol, which also probably helped ease her. My mother finally noticed her developing essentially bed sores from lying down most of her life and took her to be put asleep because I was too depressed to deal with it anymore around 20 weeks.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I'm very sorry. I understand it's upsetting to lose a chick, but sometimes even with a breed that you feel that is hale and hearty can succumb to shipping stress, genetic/developmental disorders or just fail to thrive. I know you are looking for concrete answers, but without your sending her for testing, there's no way to know why she died.

The chicken you had put down previously - did your vet have any testing performed to confirm Marek's as the cause of death?
There are so many conditions and illnesses that can look like and act Marek's it's hard to know for sure that you have Marek's without testing of tumor tissue and/or a PCR testing of feather shafts.

Marek's is a very complicated disease - I believe with careful research/reading, you may find some of the answers you are looking for or at least get a better understanding of how the disease works - here's a few articles to get you started:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq.66077/
http://jgv.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/jgv/10.1099/vir.0.81299-0#tab2
http://animalsciencey.ucdavis.edu/avian/mareks2.pdf

 

[Kazzandra]

The vet did not test-- which was very disappointing, but I don't live in an agricultural area, so the vets are not set up to deal with chickens at all. I felt I showed I did have some knowledge on Marek's but I'll gladly keep reading. I just mostly wasn't sure if chicks could be stricken with an acute version before the vaccination gave them immunity. The link I posted from a long and older Marek's thread suggested that they could. I just wanted to clarify.

I lost the other Ameraucana that was almost identical to her this morning from the same issues. I'm doing everything I can and it's frustrating. Everyone else seems to be okay right now, but it's so sudden, I can't help but be paranoid.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I'm so sorry you lost another one.