Are Satins Really Silkies?

[GlicksChicks]

My opinion.
Satins can pass as silkies, but they really are "missing" one of the key features of silkies. The normal feathering is an absence of the silkie gene. I agree that first crosses should not be called satins, cause they're not.
Showgirls are completely different to me as they are not missing any trait of the silkie. The NN is an additional gene. And I also think first cross NN/silkies should never be called showgirls

When you start crossing into showgirl/satin/frizzle all together then I draw the line and won't call that a silkie

I agree, that is one of my main thoughts. There are other breeds that have walnut combs and/or 5 toes. But silkies are the ones with silkied feathers.

And while showgirls do look goofy, they are still silkied.

 

[GlicksChicks]

I suppose it could be considered an absence of the silkie gene, but really a silkie has an absence of the satin gene. Silkied feathers are recessive so a silkie has two copies of the recessive silkie gene and no copies of the satin feather gene. In that way, satin feathers are kind of an added gene to a silkie too.

Most satins that are in silkie breeding programs only have one copy of the satin feather gene and one copy of the silkie gene. For this reason two satins bred together (if they both carry recessive silkie gene) can have silkied offspring. I get not wanting to call “frizzled satin showgirls” silkies though I do have one chick that meets all of those qualifications but it isn’t a pure silkie. I also have a really cute frizzled silkie showgirl pullet though and I definitely would call her a silkie, even though Im sure some people wouldn’t!

I would say that if you get all those different feather textures from that one bird, then it should be recognized as a BYM and not as a satin or a silkie.

 

[MysteryChicken]

I would say Yes, & No.

Why yes: They're a Variety of Silkie, but with Soft/Smooth Feathers rather then Silkied. Also if they have all the other same traits as regular Silkies, then they're still Silkies.

Why Yes & No: Because they have no Silkie Feathering, but that doesn't necessarily have to define a Silkie just by feather type.
Heck I've had pure Silkies with White/Pink skin hatch from pure stock that's Fibro.
The white/pink skin oddball are still Silkies, but lacks the Fibromelanosis.

Same goes with them missing 5th toes, feathered feet, or wrong comb type.

 

[Slothinc]

It’s okay, we can agree to disagree. I had a frizzled satin showgirl rooster - he was actually the father of my black frizzled silkie girl pictured above. I sold his chicks as silkies, (he had every attribute of a silkie, and was bred to silkie hens. I truly think of him as a silkie.) However, I tell everyone VERY clearly when I sell chicks, in the advertising and in person, exactly what feather types they may receive. If the chicks are too young to have feathered out I will let them know that they have a 50% chance of satin feathers, 50% chance of frizzle, egg color, etc etc. There should absolutely be no surprises for feather types when buying chicks from me.

Right now I am working on project birds more than anything else, and I tell people exactly what mix the chicks are and no mixed chicks are sold as purebred. But I do sell from satin silkies as purebred silkies - and I always tell people about the chance of having satin feathers. I don’t think that is unethical.

Just for fun I pulled a couple of images off of google. (Not my pictures!) One is a satin silkie that looks like what I would expect a silkie to look like. The other is being advertised as a silkie and it has silkied feathers, but looks nothing like what I would expect a silkie to be. I personally would choose the satin to use in my breeding program, and would not use the “silkie”.

Silkies are more than silkied feathers. And as I said before, satin is an easy gene to breed out if desired, while still retaining every other attribute of a regular silkie.

 

[GlicksChicks]

I would say Yes, & No.

Why yes: They're a Variety of Silkie, but with Soft/Smooth Feathers rather then Silkied. Also if they have all the other same traits as regular Silkies, then they're still Silkies.

Why Yes & No: Because they have no Silkie Feathering, but that doesn't necessarily have to define a Silkie just by feather type.
Heck I've had pure Silkies with White/Pink skin hatch from pure stock that's Fibro.
The white/pink skin oddball are still Silkies, but lacks the Fibromelanosis.

Same goes with them missing 5th toes, feathered feet, or wrong comb type.

Satins are missing one of the jost important characteristics. Why? Because they are a mix of a cochin and a silkie. And in every other breed, a mix is a mix, not the breed.

So with your logic, I could call my Buff Orpington × Buckeye mix a Buff Orpington because the only thing different is the comb, other than that their traits are 100% the same. Will even lay the same egg color and size.

The thing that defines a silkie and is their namesake is their silkied feathers. You cannot just take that from them and think they are still silkies.

People call other mix breeds that have silkied feathers things like "Silkied Seramas" because they have silkie feathers. They are not silkies or seramas, but the reason they are called that is because they have silkied feathers.

 

[GlicksChicks]

It’s okay, we can agree to disagree. I had a frizzled satin showgirl rooster - he was actually the father of my black frizzled silkie girl pictured above. I sold his chicks as silkies, (he had every attribute of a silkie, and was bred to silkie hens. I truly think of him as a silkie.) However, I tell everyone VERY clearly when I sell chicks, in the advertising and in person, exactly what feather types they may receive. If the chicks are too young to have feathered out I will let them know that they have a 50% chance of satin feathers, 50% chance of frizzle, egg color, etc etc. There should absolutely be no surprises for feather types when buying chicks from me.

Right now I am working on project birds more than anything else, and I tell people exactly what mix the chicks are and no mixed chicks are sold as purebred. But I do sell from satin silkies as purebred silkies - and I always tell people about the chance of having satin feathers. I don’t think that is unethical.

Just for fun I pulled a couple of images off of google. (Not my pictures!) One is a satin silkie that looks like what I would expect a silkie to look like. The other is being advertised as a silkie and it has silkied feathers, but looks nothing like what I would expect a silkie to be. I personally would choose the satin to use in my breeding program, and would not use the “silkie”.

Silkies are more than silkied feathers. And as I said before, satin is an easy gene to breed out if desired, while still retaining every other attribute of a regular silkie.

You get to your satins by cross breeding. Thus it is a BYM, but some people refuse to call it as such.

Are your satins one generation crosses or crossed for multiple generations and can breed true? Judging by you getting random feathering I would say it is the former. So it is a mix breed. And if it is multiple generations and could breed true, it would be it's own bird, even if it isn't an accepted breed.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

People call other mix breeds that have silkied feathers things like "Silkied Seramas" because they have silkie feathers. They are not silkies or seramas, but the reason they are called that is because they have silkied feathers.

Seramas didn't get their silkied feathers from silkies.

 

[Slothinc]

You get to your satins by cross breeding. Thus it is a BYM, but some people refuse to call it as such.

Are your satins one generation crosses or crossed for multiple generations and can breed true? Judging by you getting random feathering I would say it is the former. So it is a mix breed. And if it is multiple generations and could breed true, it would be its own bird, even if it isn't an accepted breed.

I don’t think you’re understanding. This is not some first generation cross. This has nothing to do with a orpingtonxbuckeye first generation cross. No one would call that a purebred Orpington. The satins I am referring to are silkies in every regard except for the satin feathers that were bred in MANY generations ago. Im saying if you plucked a silkie and a satin silkie they would look completely indistinguishable from each other. If you think that any bird that had a cross bred into them very far back down the line isn’t a purebred bird, then you can’t call any bird a purebred. They must all be BYM.

Having a satin that carries one silkie feather gene allows it to throw babies with the two different kinds of feathers. That doesn’t make it a BYM.

If you think that the satins are BYM and you want pure silkies, you should make sure that you never purchase silkie chicks from a breeder that has satins. Or you might end up with a silkie that had a satin feather parent. And you wouldn’t be able to consider that chick a purebred since it had a satin parent. Or grandparent. Many (probably most) silkie breeders own at least some satins so it will severely narrow your options and your gene pool.

Like in dogs, there are some breeds that come in multiple coat types yet they are the same breed and they are interbred and not considered to be separate breeds. You can get both hair types in the same litter. Obviously a very long way back, the other hair gene was bred into that breed using a dog that wasn’t the same breed. But the puppies born now are considered purebred and can be shown. This is a very similar concept.

 

[sourland]

Don't mind me, I know nothing of silkies, I don't even belong in this thread. I'll go away now.

Common sense is as common sense does - you belong.

 

[Slothinc]

Honestly I don’t mind if everyone disagrees with me on this. I simply don’t really appreciate being told that I am breeding BYM and trying to pass them off as purebreds, so if I sounded contentious that is why. I am very upfront with my buyers on possible feather types. And very upfront about any mixed breeds. I feel like I haven’t done anything wrong with my chickens or my buyers, and have never received a complaint from anyone (And btw I am in no way a large scale breeder. I sold maybe 30 chicks last year.)

If someone wants to make satin silkies their own breed, I’d be fine with that and happy to see it happen! But I truly think that a lot of breeders and buyers enjoy the different varieties found in silkies. I know I do!

I’ll bow out of this conversation now as I said my opinion and don’t have much more to add at this point