Artificial lights for staggered laying and moulting

[Kimmyh51]

Artificial lighting and 'staggered' laying...

Sorry this is so long!

Hi all. I am hoping some of you with expertise and experience with artificial lighting can give some advice.

I have a flock of khaki campbell and khaki Campbell x with runner and some i suspect Appleyard or harlequin ducks. There is also probably some pekin in some of them

I have two objectives:

1: immediate objective try and get some of my ducks who have finished molting into their new feathers to start to lay asap and lay well. I need to do this asap! Last year the molt started early summer, and though they all finished molting by mid to late summer, for about 2 months none of them laid anything, and they didn't start again till mid-late autumn, and then only 2 or 3 were laying, and not every day. Basically they stopped altogether for a good couple of months, then though it was still summer, they went into winter mode...

I am reasonably new to raising ducks for eggs, but now that I am starting to get regular customers and landing to grow my flock and egg laying business.

Objective 1: take some of the younger ducks who have finished their molt, and a couple who have ducklings which are now raised and grown, and try and put them back into a spring laying pattern asap and keep them laying till early to mid winter. My thought was to put them in housing at night, and initially, actually decrease their daylight house, ie take them back to an artificial 'winter' the start increasing the daylight hours each day, so that they hopefully think it's spring.
I was thinking- put them indoors at night, and leave them in till late morning, and let them out so say 12 hrs before sunset then let the stay out till dark (I read somewhere that they need a natural sunset, ie gradual dimming of the light, but they don't need a natural (ie gradual) sunrise?)
Then after a couple of weeks of 'winter' I would start either turning on lights, or just letting them out earlier and earlier each day to give them an increasing day length.
My questions:
Do you think this will work, to induce 'spring'
Is two weeks with shortened days enough time to convince their endocrine systems that it is 'winter'?

Objective 2: staggered seasons throughout the flock...
I am wanting to maintain a steady supply of eggs all year around. My main problem so far is not actually winter, it's the summer moult as that has been when I get no eggs for a couple of months, and then hardly any during late summer and autumn.

Both this summer and last, every single bird has stopped laying to moult. Last summer I only had 6 ducks of laying age, so figured when I had more, there would still be a few eggs each day during the moult. This this summer I have 33 ducks of laying age and I had hoped that I would get at least some eggs during the moult, if I fed them a high protein diet (Westons peak layer - 19% protein, mostly from animal origin).
However since the week before Christmas egg production has plummeted to only 2-5 eggs a day. The last couple of weeks I have only gotten 2-3 eggs a day and 3 days ago egg laying stopped completely.

So what I wanted to try and do was set up a system so that some ducks follow the natural seasonal cycle, and others have their 'spring' earlier ie start of winter and oths have it later. I was thinking of doing this by separating the girls into laying groups who will be housed together at night. To start with I will probably just have two groups, but later move to 3 or more.

And a well as using lights to simulate spring or summer in winter I thought maybe I could Also use the lights (or lack of) to stop ducks who have been laying through winter from laying through spring and summer by say leaving them in their house till late morning, a little later each day, thus hopefully stimulating ducks who were laying in winter to moult in spring, and the return to a reduced laying schedule in summer (when my ducks who are not under lights would be moulting.

So what I am wanting to achieve, is rather than trying to make my ducks lay more eggs per year than their natural cycle, to instead simply put some of my ducks on a different 'season' to others. So that ideally rather than a lot of eggs in spring, none at the start-mid summer then a few during autumn, and even less during winter, I have the same number of eggs overall each year, but more evenly spaced over the year, so as to be able to meet customer needs and have a more steady income.

My ducks free range by day, and this will never change. So my plan would be to separate them into laying groups (I will probably do this based on their preferred social groups as much as possible, while also having the same proportions of older/younger birds, good layers,/average layers etc...

My questions:

1:For those who have had their birds under lights to get them laying over winter, what effect has that had on summer laying if the birds are left under natural daylight hrs over summer
2: has anyone, after having birds lay though winter actually kept them indoors in the dark over summer to create an artificial 'winter' over summer, ie give them their natural rest period from laying, just on a different schedule..?
3: is there any need to include drakes in the artificial daylight hours either to impact laying ,or if I wish to breed from a duck (breeding is done the old fashioned way, under the duck who then raises the ducklings)

Everything will be on a budget, so also any advice on types of lights (are normal light bulbs ok and is there any difference between incandescent vs led etc?
I also have a small uv light that is designed for helping people who have worked shifts etc, get their sleep cycle back to normal. Would that be any better than a standard lightbulb, given it is supposed to replicate the actual sun (but without the cancer causing parts of the Suns uv rays lol)

Also size of housing, layout, any other things to consider. I am going to have to build a house to put the ducks in at night. What's the minimum height it needs to be. Initially I was thinking maybe 10-15 ducks per house. I was also thinking about setting it up so that I could separate each duck into her ow n area at night, mainly to see who is and isn't laying, and also so that when breeding I know whose eggs I am collecting.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I'm sorry I didn't read your entire article but got the gist of it.
This chart and write-up may be useful to you but keep in mind that it is for those in the Southern Hemisphere.
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/animals-...and-birds/species/duck-raising/egg-production

You may have to have multiple housing units to work your various age groups into your plan.
To use lighting in an effective manner, you really need true blackout housing so you can eliminate natural light from streaming in. That will require a more elaborate ventilation system to insure fresh air is constantly being introduced.
Extending or decreasing day length should be done incrementally. It is the gradual increase in light as compared to dark period that stimulates the hormones of reproduction.

 

[Kimmyh51]

I'm sorry I didn't read your entire article but got the gist of it.
This chart and write-up may be useful to you but keep in mind that it is for those in the Southern Hemisphere.

I am in NZ so that's perfect for me

 

[Kimmyh51]

You may have to have multiple housing units to work your various age groups into your plan.
To use lighting in an effective manner, you really need true blackout housing so you can eliminate natural light from streaming in. That will require a more elaborate ventilation system to insure fresh air is constantly being introduced.
Extending or decreasing day length should be done incrementally. It is the gradual increase in light as compared to dark period that stimulates the hormones of reproduction.

By blackout, do you mean even small holes for ventilation are not ok without something to prevent the light from them entering?
I was planning to make a house which has no windows, and is predator proof, so won't have any major areas where light can get in. Ie they will be locked in overnight. So the only natural light would be from under doors, or ventilation holes, cracks in walls etc...

The only time I have attempted to artificially change a ducks natural laying pattern in the past was a duck I had who had a prolapsed vent then became egg bound with ensuing egg yolk infection.
Obviously when she was really sick she was indoors anyway, but she recovered I stopped her laying by firstly keeping her indoors from after natural sunset until around 1pm with either a cover over her cage or in a room with curtains closed and no lighting or dim lighting. it was summer and sunset was still pretty late plus I wanted her days as short as possible as I really wanted to halt her laying).
Then as she got better, i allowed her back out doors with the other ducks, but each night after sunset I put her in a cage which actually was just netting on all sides, but covered that entirely with a very large old thermally lined curtain. It wouldn't be what they would have probably expected for a black out curtain back in the war, Ie in daylight hrs she would have been able to see her surroundings. but the light was pretty dim.

Anyway the entire time she was housed that way she did not lay. And when I eventually let her back out she commenced laying a week or so later.

So would I be correct in assuming that if I ensure the housing is at least as dark as it was for the above mentioned duck, it should be enough to trick their endocrine system into thinking it's whatever season my lighting schedule is trying to replicate?

I was planning to cut them back to just under 12 hrs a day sunlight, by starting the lights at 10 Am for a couple of weeks, (complete sunset is around 10pm currently) then start increasing that by maybe 3-5 mins a day in the morning using the lights. Or alternatively if I am home, just letting them out at that time, given at the moment the sun is starting to rise by 4:30am and fully up by about 5:30. So after a couple of weeks turn on lights or let them out at say 9:57, 9:54, 9:51am.... Etc
They would be out in the day and go in at or after natural sunset time.

Is there any reason I need to house them by age? In a lot of cases this will be what happens anyway, but I was also going to try and keep them in their little social groups, as I figured, girls who can hang out with their besties= happy girls and happy girls =more eggs

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Yeah, a little light seeping in is ok. I think the link I gave you has a wattage or light output to stay under when trying to prevent light from stimulating the hormones.

 

[Kimmyh51]

I can't help but wonder if, for ducks ,anyway, the light needs to not just,be above a certain number of hrs/day, but also be increasing each day. As bo years I have had ducks, it seems like as soon as we go past the longest day of the year which is usually arund dec 20, egg production drops, then moult starts within a few weeks of that longest day, and even when they start laying again, from that point on, I get hardly any eggs Ie 10-30 % of laying ducks who are not moulting, raising young or sitting, lay an egg. So for half the year I get hardly any eggs for the number of potentially laying females. I had expected with khaki campbell and runner and khaki Campbell x that I would get more eggs than this without using lights, given they were all being fed a 19% protein layer pellet ad lib.
So I feel like to get egg production that is reliable and consistent enough to meet customer expectations I need to have some ducks in 'spring' mode all year around. I am thinking long term of having lights in at least two houses so that I always have some ducks in spring time, and can also ensure ducks who just laid through autumn and winter have a break from laying in actual spring by making their days shorter.

Has anyone had a house which is a lot lower than 7ft with lights and did it work okay? As I am building this myself out of whatever I can cronge for materials it will be a lot quicker and easier to build a house with a roof much lower than 7-8 ft. The first one will not be that big, maybe 2.5-3m sq. do you thi one bulb at that lower level will light it enough?

 

[Welshies]

I would not keep those hens by themselves. Too stressful. Don't do it.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I'm not sure what you're asking with the building height question.
But you have bade a very astute observation about increasing vs. decreasing day length affecting whether they go into reproduction mode or it shuts down.
Actually, the science behind it shows that the birds sense it as day length vis a vis length of darkness.

 

[Kimmyh51]

No

I would not keep those hens by themselves. Too stressful. Don't do it.

Not sure what you mean by that? None of the ducks is being housed alone. They are all housed together, right next door to the rest of the flock, and in the day time they have free range access to the rest of the flock

 

[Kimmyh51]

I'm not sure what you're asking with the building height question..

Just that d
I kept reading to have a lightbulb hanging at least 7 ft up.... Which obviously isn't possible unless the housing aphas a roof which is more than 7ft at at least one point. My house is only about 4-5 ft high at the highest point.