Ayam cemani and Naked Neck mixing (with some moral questions)

[EggzactlyRight]

(TL;DR at the end - I'm so sorry, I love rambling)

Last week my mom and my grandma had to travel for official business and turns out the lawyer they went to has a rather big Ayam Cemani flock. She keeps them in her yard, fully free-range, with more than enough shelter, and they are absolutely loving their place and thriving. Both my mom and my grandma immediately asked if they could buy a cockerel and some pullets or some eggs to hatch because they know I've been wanting to get this breed for years but we have never met anyone in our country who has Ayam Cemani (and isn't at the other end of the country). While the lawyer was unable to sell them some at the moment, they exchanged contact information and she promised to give them some next year if we call. I, of course, am absolutely thrilled (I teared up at work a bit when my mom told me, I was so happy lol) and excited to finally be able to have this wonderful breed in my flock.

I have over a year to prepare, and though there isn't much to do (besides saving up money, which I am), I feel a bit overwhelmed with questions. I have been reading about Ayam Cemani for years, and because of my experience with other breeds and mixed flocks I believe I couldn't be possibly more prepared at the moment. Yesterday, however, a question popped into my mind that I haven't been able to stop thinking about all day and night, and I am also questioning my goals and plans, so please help me out.

I currently still live at home and most likely won't be moving for at least another year or two because of work, but my partner and I are planning on moving together when the time is right. We are saving up for a house with a big garden so I may continue keeping chickens (and perhaps get some other animals too in the future). I want to keep things simple until then so I won't have to take some many chickens with me when I move (it is around a 2-3 hour drive). Still, I want to plan so I know how much space and money I'll need to make it happen.

So what I have been thinking about is breeding Ayam Cemani with our flock of Naked Necks (in the future). Naked Necks are my absolute favorite and I love Ayam Cemani because of their gorgeous and unique look. At first I wanted to keep two separate flocks (one full of NNs, the other for ACs), but ever since this idea popped into my head I can't stop thinking about it. I think it would be amazing to have hens and roosters who have that beautiful black color because of fibromelanosis but also have naked necks. Or?

First of all, I know nothing about genetics. Sure, whenever we hatch from my flock or my grandma's we know what we are going to get but it's not because I know anything about genetics, it's just because I have eyes and I pay attention to the chickens. So, as embarrassing as it is for me to admit, I have no idea how it would work IF it were to work at all. Do I breed my NN hens with an AC rooster, then once I have blackish NNs do I breed back to AC for the desired pigmentation with each generation? Do I need to make sure the NNs I choose for breeding DON'T have blackish/gray skin? Is there anything else I need to look out for?

Secondly, is this morally right? Should I even attempt to do this, or should I just forget about it? I would be doing this for my own desires, and of course I won't breed hundreds of chickens for years until I get what I want, and I won't just get rid of all the generations I don't "need" anymore, but still. I will do my absolute best to provide a long, healthy, peaceful life for all my chickens regardless of their age, gender, appearance, or anything else, so it's not like I'd become a chicken factory, but I still feel guilty about wanting to do this.

Thank you to anyone who has read all this, and I would be very grateful for any advice!

TL;DR: I want to breed my Naked Necks with Ayam Cemani until I get fully black chickens with naked necks. Would it work, and if yes, how? Is it morally right to do this?​

 

[SnackMeat]

I don't really understand the moral question because if they flock together you will eventually get NN/AC offspring.

I also wouldn't get your hopes up for AC from that person because unless there was a sickness/medical issue, or they had already sold off or were hatching eggs for orders, I don't understand why they couldn't have given you a 3-6 eggs to incubate. This speaks to me of someone who is very protective of being one of the few sources of AC in your country and is unlikely to give you some next year. I would be curious how many chickens they are actually selling for breeding or if they are doing something weird and selling only for meat and slaughtering before the handoff.

Not to be overly suspicious but I would come up with a backup plan for sourcing AC chickens/roosters/eggs, which you would need to do anyway for diverse genetics.


Re: nn/AC crossing, I don't know enough about genetics but from a size disparity you would want a NN rooster to fertilize a AC hen. This way the egg is big enough when the fetus is maturing, so the fetus can turn in the shell. An AC rooster on a NN hen means the shell space would likely be much smaller. Doesn't mean nothing could come from that union, but to set yourself up for success I would do it the other way around.

And artificial insemination would be the fastest way, so you didn't have any issues with imperfect covering of a NN rooster on a larger hen.

 

[EggzactlyRight]

I don't really understand the moral question because if they flock together you will eventually get NN/AC offspring.

I also wouldn't get your hopes up for AC from that person because unless there was a sickness/medical issue, or they had already sold off or were hatching eggs for orders, I don't understand why they couldn't have given you a 3-6 eggs to incubate. This speaks to me of someone who is very protective of being one of the few sources of AC in your country and is unlikely to give you some next year. I would be curious how many chickens they are actually selling for breeding or if they are doing something weird and selling only for meat and slaughtering before the handoff.

Not to be overly suspicious but I would come up with a backup plan for sourcing AC chickens/roosters/eggs, which you would need to do anyway for diverse genetics.


Re: nn/AC crossing, I don't know enough about genetics but from a size disparity you would want a NN rooster to fertilize a AC hen. This way the egg is big enough when the fetus is maturing, so the fetus can turn in the shell. An AC rooster on a NN hen means the shell space would likely be much smaller. Doesn't mean nothing could come from that union, but to set yourself up for success I would do it the other way around.

And artificial insemination would be the fastest way, so you didn't have any issues with imperfect covering of a NN rooster on a larger hen.

Thank you so much for the response!

I trust this person because she isn't the reason we didn't get any eggs ( I apologize if I worded it incorrectly in my original post). She said she cannot give us pullets and cockerels because she wants to keep some and the others have been reserved already, so to say. It was originally her idea to give us eggs (she offered them for free because she said she cannot guarantee a high enough hatch rate), and it was my grandma who politely declined the offer. Since her little ones are only around 2 months and she's the one with the incubator she wouldn't have enough space for the new chicks and she didn't want to take on the responsibility without being able to provide a proper place for enough chicks. Since then my grandma has regretted declining the offer but the woman with the ACs (don't want to call her a seller, she does it because she loves chickens) reassured her that we'll be getting enough chicks or eggs next year, whichever we prefer. They'll be in contact anyway because of official business (not related to the chickens) so I'll stay hopeful for now.

The moral question is mainly because it is not accepted everywhere to mix breeds. I can only refer to my own experience, which overall has been positive, but I have been told multiple times by different people that they don't think it is morally right to mix breeds purely for looks. I don't think my intentions are malevolent at all, but I still wanted to ask for opinions here, just in case.

Thank you for the advice on the crossing!​

 

[SnackMeat]

Ah, ok, so there's a cultural thing going on with mixing breeds, which makes me wonder if ethnicities are segregated or mixed ethnic marriages/unions considered taboo where you are (because this is the only historical comparison I have for why people might be anti-chickens mixing....because mutts are a thing everywhere, dogs, cats, chickens.)


Typically the offspring of two pure breed chickens has what is termed "hybrid vigor." From what I have read they tend to (but not always because genetics can be weird and wonderful about recessive traits among other things) be hardier for the first generation. One example of this could be a silkie and a Cochin, both being carriers of the recessive frizzle gene. The two pairs then creates (or higher chance to create) frazzle genes which would mean feathers break off, heart issues, bad health. I would say it's not super common for mixed breed chickens to have issues like that but it does exist.


As an aside, if you can maybe look into some silkies for fibro to cross with NN so you are already moving towards dark skin that could get you closer in the meantime. But then you'd have to decide on how you feel about four toes versus five.


I have read about a necked neck broiler (less feathers to pluck) maybe called a pilgrims cross. So between that and the "showgirl" which is the silkie/nn cross, definitely NN crosses out there.


And if you have the chance to get eggs sooner, definitely do so. Flocks can be partially or fully wiped out unexpectedly. It helps breeders to have their flock's genetics spread out.


Going back to the point of mixing breeds, I wouldn't free-range them together because AC are so rare in your country. I wouldn't consider it immoral though. Maybe bad form if there is a demand for AC and you could have some pure AC to help but instead turn them into barnyard mixes. But even then, ultimately, is up to your means. You could love AC and NNs and not have the means to have two pens and coops, or two separate breeding programs. It would be nice to keep some AC pure, especially in case the woman donating eggs winds up having a flock issue and needs access to the genetics but can't use her flock for whatever reason.

 

[EggzactlyRight]

Ah, ok, so there's a cultural thing going on with mixing breeds, which makes me wonder if ethnicities are segregated or mixed ethnic marriages/unions considered taboo where you are (because this is the only historical comparison I have for why people might be anti-chickens mixing....because mutts are a thing everywhere, dogs, cats, chickens.)


Typically the offspring of two pure breed chickens has what is termed "hybrid vigor." From what I have read they tend to (but not always because genetics can be weird and wonderful about recessive traits among other things) be hardier for the first generation. One example of this could be a silkie and a Cochin, both being carriers of the recessive frizzle gene. The two pairs then creates (or higher chance to create) frazzle genes which would mean feathers break off, heart issues, bad health. I would say it's not super common for mixed breed chickens to have issues like that but it does exist.


As an aside, if you can maybe look into some silkies for fibro to cross with NN so you are already moving towards dark skin that could get you closer in the meantime. But then you'd have to decide on how you feel about four toes versus five.


I have read about a necked neck broiler (less feathers to pluck) maybe called a pilgrims cross. So between that and the "showgirl" which is the silkie/nn cross, definitely NN crosses out there.


And if you have the chance to get eggs sooner, definitely do so. Flocks can be partially or fully wiped out unexpectedly. It helps breeders to have their flock's genetics spread out.


Going back to the point of mixing breeds, I wouldn't free-range them together because AC are so rare in your country. I wouldn't consider it immoral though. Maybe bad form if there is a demand for AC and you could have some pure AC to help but instead turn them into barnyard mixes. But even then, ultimately, is up to your means. You could love AC and NNs and not have the means to have two pens and coops, or two separate breeding programs. It would be nice to keep some AC pure, especially in case the woman donating eggs winds up having a flock issue and needs access to the genetics but can't use her flock for whatever reason.

Well... Interestingly enough, mutts in cats and dogs are very popular where I live because most people don't want to spend money on purebreds. Specifically about mixed chickens I have only heard negative comments in the past few years, never when I was a child. I don't want to assume or accidentally spread incorrect information, but I do believe it is mostly animal rights activists who have told me that mixing chicken breeds for looks is morally wrong. But then again I have been also told that you cannot be a feminist if you eat eggs, but that's a different can of worms I'd rather not open now.

I originally wanted to keep the NNs and ACs completely separate but I don't actually know if I'll have the chance to do this in the near future so that's why I started thinking of mixing them and trying to get nice mixes. But I do think you are right that I should keep pure ACs (too), just in case. And I've been wanting to get Silkies too anyway, so this might work out pretty well.

Thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it! ​

 

[Pearlescent]

I don't want to assume or accidentally spread incorrect information, but I do believe it is mostly animal rights activists who have told me that mixing chicken breeds for looks is morally wrong.​

There is nothing wrong with NN/AC crosses. They are just as ethical as normal NNs. The people who have told you this are either imagining an unhealthy bird bred for looks and nothing else, or just know nothing about chickens.

Personally, I think a NN/AC would look awesome!

 

[EggzactlyRight]

There is nothing wrong with NN/AC crosses. They are just as ethical as normal NNs. The people who have told you this are either imagining an unhealthy bird bred for looks and nothing else, or just know nothing about chickens.

Personally, I think a NN/AC would look awesome!

Thank you, it means a lot to me to hear that there's nothing wrong with what I'd like to achieve!

I don't want to pretend like most have told me it is wrong, but after hearing it from a few different people I really started to question myself. As long as I get to have happy, healthy chickens in my yard, all is good. ​

 

[Iluveggers]

Just a thought…if you keep only female NN, and both male & female ACs, any tan eggs you hatch would be mixed, and any white eggs you hatch would be pure ACs. Not sure you would want to do that. Or if you keep two flocks, you could keep one that is just AC, and the other could be NN & AC together for crosses. I’m sure that would create logistical decisions, but I’ve often thought of becoming a breeder when I retire, and mixing 2 breeds like that to have multiple egg/chick breeds to offer people.

Nothing morally wrong with mixing, I think it depends on your end goals.

 

[EggzactlyRight]

Just a thought…if you keep only female NN, and both male & female ACs, any tan eggs you hatch would be mixed, and any white eggs you hatch would be pure ACs. Not sure you would want to do that. Or if you keep two flocks, you could keep one that is just AC, and the other could be NN & AC together for crosses. I’m sure that would create logistical decisions, but I’ve often thought of becoming a breeder when I retire, and mixing 2 breeds like that to have multiple egg/chick breeds to offer people.

Nothing morally wrong with mixing, I think it depends on your end goals.

That's a really good idea, thank you!

I think maybe I am the one overwhelming myself by wanting to come up with everything even before I know exactly what I'll work with - but then again I love planning and preparing, and I want to make sure I am prepared for my new flock.

Using your suggestion I think I'd have to get fresh NNs instead of using my flock, which originates from my grandma's flock. They all lay slightly different colored eggs (one of them also has really, really big eggs from time to time, either with two regular sized yolks or one gigantic one) as they are mixes. Or am I overthinking...? ​

 

[Iluveggers]

That's a really good idea, thank you!

I think maybe I am the one overwhelming myself by wanting to come up with everything even before I know exactly what I'll work with - but then again I love planning and preparing, and I want to make sure I am prepared for my new flock.

Using your suggestion I think I'd have to get fresh NNs instead of using my flock, which originates from my grandma's flock. They all lay slightly different colored eggs (one of them also has really, really big eggs from time to time, either with two regular sized yolks or one gigantic one) as they are mixes. Or am I overthinking...? ​

As long as none of them lay white, you should be able to tell the breeds apart.