Ayam cemani what to look for when buying ?

[Verbon30]

I looking into breeding ayam cemani but I want to good breeding stalk. I been reading on the FM gene how do I tell which chicks are the best and more importantly which will make poor breeding stalk. They are for sale on Craigslist for $30 I sold them some silkies last year she seemed confident about her quality but I don't trust people. I been fooled before I bought some SO CALLED SHOW QUALITY SILKIES. Let's just say that they were not!

 

[raingarden]

This is my understanding, but I'm no expert.

Any bird without the FM gene is obvious because it is not solid black. But, you cannot distinguish the heterozygote (one dose) birds from homozygote (two dose) birds by looking because FM is dominant and they are both solid black.

The only way to know who is homozygous is to do test crosses. If 25% of the offspring have color (other than black) then both parents are heterozygous. If none of the offspring have color other than black, then at least one of the parents is homozygous.

If none of the offspring from any cross in the next generation have color, other than black, then both of the grandparents were homozygous.

 

[Verbon30]

This is my understanding, but I'm no expert.

Any bird without the FM gene is obvious because it is not solid black. But, you cannot distinguish the heterozygote (one dose) birds from homozygote (two dose) birds by looking because FM is dominant and they are both solid black.

The only way to know who is homozygous is to do test crosses. If 25% of the offspring have color (other than black) then both parents are heterozygous. If none of the offspring have color other than black, then at least one of the parents is homozygous.

If none of the offspring from any cross in the next generation have color, other than black, then both of the grandparents were homozygous. Thanks

 

[WonkierZulu]

The fibro is important check the bottom of the feet, mouth, vent, beak, feathers. If they have anything other than black. If those all check out you should have a good stock to start with. After that it's a long process to keep carrying a full fibro across generations.

 

[Verbon30]

The fibro is important check the bottom of the feet, mouth, vent, beak, feathers. If they have anything other than black. If those all check out you should have a good stock to start with. After that it's a long process to keep carrying a full fibro across generations.

Thank you. I was hoping for a blood test but I guess they are so rare that it's cost effective to make a simple cost affordable test.

 

[ErnieBerley]

I looking into breeding ayam cemani but I want to good breeding stalk. I been reading on the FM gene how do I tell which chicks are the best and more importantly which will make poor breeding stalk. They are for sale on Craigslist for $30 I sold them some silkies last year she seemed confident about her quality but I don't trust people. I been fooled before I bought some SO CALLED SHOW QUALITY SILKIES. Let's just say that they were not!

watch out they are very susceptible to Marek's

 

[Alexis_8966]

I looking into breeding ayam cemani but I want to good breeding stalk. I been reading on the FM gene how do I tell which chicks are the best and more importantly which will make poor breeding stalk. They are for sale on Craigslist for $30 I sold them some silkies last year she seemed confident about her quality but I don't trust people. I been fooled before I bought some SO CALLED SHOW QUALITY SILKIES. Let's just say that they were not!

It’s a tough one because yes unfortunately people tell you this and that only to try and sell. I’d ask plenty of questions and to see their breeding stock itself. I have my own which I believe are a good bloodline and still for me at least the toe nails are the hardest to get 100% black. It’s usually just one or two toe nails but it fades and turns solid black in about 2-3weeks (usually 20% or so of my hatches). That’s how I find my keepers and the ones with the minor problems like one nail not being totally black I’d sell. But they are still “pure” ayam cemani’s and a great place to start and always find improvements in the generations to come.

 

[CoconutCoffee]

I got a few cemanis from Dragonfly Farm. From everything I've seen on mine, theyre entirely black. Even the bottoms of their feet. I haven't checked vents or opened their beaks to inspect though. She ships eggs but chicks are local pick up only and says her cemani flock is from 3 different lines but doesn't state which ones. I can post pictures of mine if you want.

 

[Tankueray]

Ayam Cemani aren't rare anymore. Look at the number of listings for them on eBay, everyone is selling them because they think they can get a premium for them. I just responded to someone else looking that they are everywhere in Texas.

They also aren't an APA Standard Breed, so you're not going to find many people who take seriously the genetics and breeding, just a lot of people looking to make a buck.

You can't tell how good they are as chicks, eumelanin isn't fully present at hatch. You can only look at the parents for an idea. If they are breeding one cock per hen, then they're more serious about quality than someone breeding one cock to many hens. The parents should have no red or white showing through anywhere, but that's not a guarantee either. Red/Gold leaking in any of the feathers is a hard pass, white edges or tips in feathers might be okay if they're less than three, but generally if feathers haven't fully eumelanized after the second molt, pass there as well.

If you're in Florida, just buy from Greenfire. All the birds around you are going to be from their lines, no sense in getting something that hasn't been properly bred to a plan when you can get chicks directly from the seed stock.

On your show quality silkies - again, just like slapping "rare" on a listing for Cemani, anyone can say their birds are show quality. Dead giveaways are:

1. No proof that their birds have ever been in a show, let alone won one.
2. The breed isn't an APA or ABA Standard breed, or the variety (color) isn't a recognized one.
3. They do not own a copy of the bound and published Standard of Perfection. (You simply cannot find everything you need to know online.)
4. NO PT CERTIFICATE (You have to have at least PT to show anywhere, and to sell across state lines, along with an NPIP#.)
5. They sell a ton of different breeds.
6. They advertise everywhere with multiple posts like they're desperate.
7. They are not a member of the official breed club and/or the APA/ABA (a requirement for show points).
8. They cannot immediately tell you what faults (defects) are most common in their line and how they've been trying to work on them.
9. They get broodstock regularly from many sources.
10. If they're a member of any groups or forums, their posts do not reflect a strong knowledge of their breed.
11. The place looks like a puppy farm.
12. They let you into their pens and they practice little to no biosecurity.
13. They have no opinion when you ask, "I'd like to vaccinate for ILT, do you have a recommendation on which vaccine to use?" (If they have shown before or are well respected as a breeder, they'll know what the answer is and have horror stories to share.)
14. Bonafide show quality chicks from a show winning breeder are never less than $15 each, and that's usually only when they need to move them, they know what they have.
15. And the biggest tell? If you start asking questions and they back out or give you attitude like they don't need your business because someone else will pay what they want without hassle (and they're not a Nationals Winner), then walk away - even if the chicks are cheap you're not getting what you paid for.

 

[TamaNicole]

This is my understanding, but I'm no expert.

Any bird without the FM gene is obvious because it is not solid black. But, you cannot distinguish the heterozygote (one dose) birds from homozygote (two dose) birds by looking because FM is dominant and they are both solid black.

The only way to know who is homozygous is to do test crosses. If 25% of the offspring have color (other than black) then both parents are heterozygous. If none of the offspring have color other than black, then at least one of the parents is homozygous.

If none of the offspring from any cross in the next generation have color, other than black, then both of the grandparents were homozygous.

Been doing a lot of research in this as well and still trying to grasp it all, my roommate has a much better handle on the genetics. But he explained it to me that you are looking for birds where the Original Breeder is breeding for quality. The woman I got my hatching eggs from did confirm her birds are all double gene animals, meaning when I cross them out to verify the hatchlings from the cross will all be black.

My Ayam Cemani hatchlings are due in a week and then it's growing them up and testing them out to verify their genes. Once I know what I have are double gene animals I will continue that path.