Breeds needing preservation - how rare

[MNmommy]

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I do hope you wrote a polite letter and sent a picture with it. If I was the breeder, I would want to know. He is very involved with the APA and has been breeding fowl for over 40 years.

I was polite and called to let him know 2 of my silkies were not pure. He said he purchase some new lines and thought he was getting something else?? He said I could have credit next year but told him I already have my quota for birds. I can only have 4 hens where I live and I had plenty right now, just not the breed I paid for. He again said well you can have credit next year.....basically I am stuck with 2 mutts and they are both looking like roos. I wish he could have been more helpful in figuring something out to remedy the situation now. I would have been more than happy to pick up 2 new silkies since I am just 40 mins. from him but that wasn't an option I guess. I know things can happen but I also believe in making the customer happy. It is like buying what you think is a pure great dane and realizing it was mixed with a poodle.

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

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Me not knowing turkeys that well, here is a website for you:
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/Turkeys/BRKBBWhite.html

As it states on feathersite:

These large white birds are the most popular for the commercial market, as the carcass shows no pin feathers. They are referred to as Broad-breasted Whites in commercial terminology. In terms of their history however, we may be dealing with two different breeds here. You can note in the images below that the Holland tom is much finer boned and longer-legged than the BB White. The Hollands have blue eyes.

ETA: The description of the birds in the SOP is supposedly the "ideal" bird. Birds that are working on being bred towards. There is ALSO an allotment to change the SOP in specific areas. If you are concerned enough with the eye color, surely you and others who are working to preserve the breed would be able to gather enough support to write in and ask for a clarification.​

Exactly my point. Look at your APA standard and note the eye color for the White Holland turkey.

The "ideal" white holland does not reflect the original bird???? How can that be?

Also Feathersite needs to update their write ups very badly. The BBW turkey was developed in the 1950's, it took the place of the Beltsville Small White that was the number 1 selling meat turkey prior to that time (we also happen to raise them as well, If you have a copy of last years Countryside magazine or the ALBC newsletter from Thanksgiving time last year you can read the article we wrote about the 3 white feathered heritage turkeys.)

The mutation to the white color (which is actually lack of color) is an ancient one. The Aztecs and others selectively bred white turkeys, and they were certainly among the stocks sent to Europe. In Austria and in Holland, white turkeys were favored. It is quite possible, though not documented that Dutch settlers or other European immigrants came to the New World with White turkeys.

In the early 1950s, researchers at Cornell University and elsewhere in the United States began crossing the White Holland and Broad-breasted Bronze. By the 1960s, the Broad Breasted White (or Large White) had surpassed the Bronze for commercial production. This variety dominates the turkey industry today.

The White Holland as a distinctive and historic population is close to extinction. White Holland turkeys are seen occasionally at poultry shows, but they often have the wide breasts and short legs reflecting genetic influence from the Large White. The American Poultry Association both recognized this fact and confused the issue in 1983 when a change in the White Holland standard added the following: “May be referred to in commercial terminology as Broad-breasted Whites or Large Whites.” Thus the two varieties have merged, with the White Holland absorbed into the Large White. The same thing has occurred in Britain, with the lumping of all white varieties into a population called the “British White” turkey.

Even the ALBC in keeping with the "standard" states the WH has blue eyes and that we are working to have corrected.

Now once again I ask - how does the SOP not reflect the true bird?

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

You "might" want to designate that the writing above is not your own.

http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/wholland.html

I, again, do not understand your question? It seems as though now you are asking me, someone who did not write the SOP, nor was I even alive when it was being written, are asking why I did not originally put the brown eyes in?

If that is your question all I can say is talk to the APA. I am not a middle man on this. I do not have my standard at this house, I will have to go back to my apartment to get it so if you want to wait until after 7PM, I will be more than happy to look at it.

The "ideal" white holland does not reflect the original bird???? How can that be?

Perhaps it is because one should start selecting for the blue eyes rather than brown eyes?​

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

I, again, do not understand your question?

Exactly and there is no further point to debate it​

 

[speckledhen]

Steve and Mika, maybe you should take further discussion to PM-seems to be getting somewhat testy.

The original question was if Ideal and others were offering a certain breed, why would it be considered endangered. Delawares are a perfect example of that. Most hatcheries seem to have crossed in Columbian Rock blood to their Delaware lines, probably to offset effects of too much inbreeding. The ones I've seen have odd colored legs, narrow chests, low wing carriage and lots of black or green in the sickles, more black and less actual barring in the hackles, etc. The Delawares that are more closely descended from the original Indian River chickens are the ones that are very rare, more "undiluted", as it were. Outcrossing has its purposes, however, after that, you must select for proper traits in the bird you are trying to improve. That doesn't seem to have been done with the Delawares. I'm trying to develop a good foundation breeding flock of Delawares right now. Even starting with excellent lines, there is work to be done to improve them, as seriousbill will tell you.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Thanks speckledhen, I was actually going to suggest that. I appreciate the use of your pictures too!

Steve, if you would rather discuss in PM, by all means...my inbox is quite open at the moment.

speckledhen, do you believe that breedings, no matter how they are, should at least have a purpose if the breeder is working to preserve that breed? Rather than simply breeding to make more numbers?

 

[speckledhen]

speckledhen, do you believe that breedings, no matter how they are, should at least have a purpose if the breeder is working to preserve that breed? Rather than simply breeding to make more numbers?

I do think some care should be taken to uphold quality in a breed, certainly, not just propagate more of them. I would hope that one could breed to the standard as well as keep them reproducing as naturally as possible. Buying a bunch of hatchery Delawares with lots of Columbian Rock blood then breeding those with no culling for wrong traits to me is not preserving anything. Just producing lots of birds called "Delawares" isn't the primary goal. Lots of Delawares with the proper traits per standard would be the goal. I hope I understood your question right!​

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

You did!

I just think that some registries, I'm not going to name names because I do not know all of them and would hate to single out, simply do not care about the quality of the birds, but rather sheer numbers. I am worried about these groups. What are their criteria for determining what is rare and what is not? Is it only numbers? Is it flocks that are bred towards the standard?

I guess one would have to email the leaders of the groups to find out.

 

[speckledhen]

I certainly don't hold myself up as a real breeder or an expert of any kind, but I just personally would like to see goodlooking birds on my property who look pretty close to the way they are supposed to look. And if I send hatching eggs, I hope that the person who owns those birds is pleased with their quality. It's one reason I quit breeding Ameraucanas for awhile--too many undesirable traits were coming out and I just didnt have the motivation to get new stock going. I do have some mixed breeds, most accidental, LOL, and I love them, but they make up only a small percentage of my entire flock.
I have the heart of a pet owner, not a breeder, LOL. However, with my Delawares, I will be culling for type over time and trying to breed a quality bird, true to the breed standard, or darn close to it. I think if someone really looked at the representation of a good quality Delaware male, they'd be surprised at how large and deep that bird's body is, not very much like most hatchery versions you see. I may not breed them forever, but if and when I liquidate my stock, someone will acquire some excellent quality Delawares.

 

[cybercat]

You know I think there might be a slight misconception on the way some people see the term breeder. Cynthia I consider you a breeder for you have goals you are working toward.

A breeder does Not have to have a mass amount of birds. One can do breeding with just a few.

There are so many different ways to set up for breeding that one way should suite enyone. If you have a small yard you can set up to breeding pens with just 2 or 3 birds each. Yes you will be limited in how many gens you can do before introducing new stock but it can be done and improvment shown.

I think people get a bit intimidated by hearing about breeders that have 50 or more birds and cull hundred of chicks each year. The thing is not many breeders really have that many birds of one breed. Yes, there are many farms like that but there are more small time breeders than big ones.

The thing to remember about breeding and calling your self one is a simple statement.

Quality and not quantity. Hatcheries do the reverse of this statement.