Corn/Soy/Organic Feed

[Kiki]

@U_Stormcrow We're looking for options for feed -- and a foraging seed mix for a plot this Summer, also the option to make our own sprouting mix aka Edible Acres youtube videos
Do you think I could get feed from Harrell Milling in North Alabama? I can't find any "locations sold at" on their website. Also, have prices dramatically increased since you posted these in January? (Late April now.)

Local feed store / mill buys from Guntersville mill - Faithway Mills - and their 16% is 16.99 here; 22% "super layer" is 18.75/50lb.

Appreciate guidance - we're new, our 6 Rhode Island Reds are just starting to lay.
I understand we have to be careful about balance, vitamins, and I now hear the concern that chickens will pick and choose and not eat all the nutrition they need as a result. (Hadn't thought of that, don't really know chickens yet.) I try to eat whole foods myself, so I find myself concerned about all the over-processed ingredients in these mixes. (I have seen what a travesty that has caused in dogs and cats over decades.)

Hope to help by allowing foraging (protected) and sprouting. We can't free range. I realize you just said you've got guaranteed nutrition, and that's valid too. Just trying to find our way. Thanks!

[ EDIT: I came in mid-thread via the search engine, thought there were only three posts or so in this thread -- and I now realize there's a whole lot more in this thread to read. Forgive me if I've totally missed a lot. ]

Each of the two feeds you mentioned.
"SUPER" layer will NOT make them produce more eggs like they claim.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/reviews/pride-pleasure-22-“super”-layer-pellets.12099/

https://www.backyardchickens.com/reviews/pride-pleasure-16-layer.12100/

 

[Kiki]

@U_Stormcrow We're looking for options for feed -- and a foraging seed mix for a plot this Summer, also the option to make our own sprouting mix aka Edible Acres youtube videos
Do you think I could get feed from Harrell Milling in North Alabama? I can't find any "locations sold at" on their website. Also, have prices dramatically increased since you posted these in January? (Late April now.)

Local feed store / mill buys from Guntersville mill - Faithway Mills - and their 16% is 16.99 here; 22% "super layer" is 18.75/50lb.

Appreciate guidance - we're new, our 6 Rhode Island Reds are just starting to lay.
I understand we have to be careful about balance, vitamins, and I now hear the concern that chickens will pick and choose and not eat all the nutrition they need as a result. (Hadn't thought of that, don't really know chickens yet.) I try to eat whole foods myself, so I find myself concerned about all the over-processed ingredients in these mixes. (I have seen what a travesty that has caused in dogs and cats over decades.)

Hope to help by allowing foraging (protected) and sprouting. We can't free range. I realize you just said you've got guaranteed nutrition, and that's valid too. Just trying to find our way. Thanks!

[ EDIT: I came in mid-thread via the search engine, thought there were only three posts or so in this thread -- and I now realize there's a whole lot more in this thread to read. Forgive me if I've totally missed a lot. ]

Keep things simple.
If you purchase a pelleted or crumbles type feed you are not giving the birds the option to pick and choose which whole grain they do or do not want to eat. This act of picking and choose whole grains can become a serious problem.

Stick with a commercially made pelleted or crumbled feed and they will be better off in the long run.

The other BIG problem is most people over feed treats. They don't need daily treats. They need a complete balanced diet which is the pelleted or crumble feed.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

@U_Stormcrow We're looking for options for feed -- and a foraging seed mix for a plot this Summer, also the option to make our own sprouting mix aka Edible Acres youtube videos
Do you think I could get feed from Harrell Milling in North Alabama? I can't find any "locations sold at" on their website. Also, have prices dramatically increased since you posted these in January? (Late April now.)

Local feed store / mill buys from Guntersville mill - Faithway Mills - and their 16% is 16.99 here; 22% "super layer" is 18.75/50lb.

Appreciate guidance - we're new, our 6 Rhode Island Reds are just starting to lay.
I understand we have to be careful about balance, vitamins, and I now hear the concern that chickens will pick and choose and not eat all the nutrition they need as a result. (Hadn't thought of that, don't really know chickens yet.) I try to eat whole foods myself, so I find myself concerned about all the over-processed ingredients in these mixes. (I have seen what a travesty that has caused in dogs and cats over decades.)

Hope to help by allowing foraging (protected) and sprouting. We can't free range. I realize you just said you've got guaranteed nutrition, and that's valid too. Just trying to find our way. Thanks!

[ EDIT: I came in mid-thread via the search engine, thought there were only three posts or so in this thread -- and I now realize there's a whole lot more in this thread to read. Forgive me if I've totally missed a lot. ]

All good, welcome to the chat. Yes, I suspect Harrell is available in North Alabama through Family Feed Store type operations, no, apart from rabbit feed, prices have been reasonably stable (though still much higher than pre-Pandemic). My local store uses feed as a (nearly) loss leader to get people in the door, they sell at about 5% markup after my bulk discount, compared to the usual 30% retail markup.

So I pay a little under $13 for "layer" and around $16 for my 24% game bird mix. I want to say Goat feed is running about $14 right now, and rabbit over $16. If I went up the road to by Tucker Milling's products, at another store, they are about $2-3 more per 50# bag. Harrell is highly processed, they use a significant amount of by-products to keep nutrition up and cost down. If that's a concern, you might want to consider Tucker Milling's NatureWise (or some word like that) instead.

I don't know your region, but the prices you suggest don't sound out of line.
As to forage, you want a couple legumes - I use a mix of clovers. You may have luck with peanut as well. You want some grasses/near grains - panic grass and some prarie grasses work well for me right now, you might be able to get some orchard-types going, being north of me. Some people do well with vetch (I don't). I've tried planting various tuber types to break up my soils (carrots, radish, chufa this year) no luck so far (chufa goes in the ground this weekend). Sorrels and various brassica (mustards) can do well for you as cover crops. and if you can get a taller grain going in patches, it can provide some shade, hiding places, and vertical support for the vining/twining plants. I'm trying sorghum/sudangrass hybrid again, hoping the birds don't eat it all this year.

Basically, the more variety you can provide, the longer your effective pasture season, and the less the risk of nutritional imbalance. In a field full of corn, if the chickens get hungry, they are going to eat... corn. In a field that looks like a 15 ingredient salad, not only do they have more greens to choose from, but it will also attract more varied insect life....

The above is general rules of thumb. Mine is black, I have no more specific guidance to offer, not familiar enough with your soil, drainage, climate.

 

[R Wind]

All good, welcome to the chat. Yes, I suspect Harrell is available in North Alabama through Family Feed Store type operations, no, apart from rabbit feed, prices have been reasonably stable (though still much higher than pre-Pandemic). My local store uses feed as a (nearly) loss leader to get people in the door, they sell at about 5% markup after my bulk discount, compared to the usual 30% retail markup.

So I pay a little under $13 for "layer" and around $16 for my 24% game bird mix. I want to say Goat feed is running about $14 right now, and rabbit over $16. If I went up the road to by Tucker Milling's products, at another store, they are about $2-3 more per 50# bag. Harrell is highly processed, they use a significant amount of by-products to keep nutrition up and cost down. If that's a concern, you might want to consider Tucker Milling's NatureWise (or some word like that) instead.

I don't know your region, but the prices you suggest don't sound out of line.
As to forage, you want a couple legumes - I use a mix of clovers. You may have luck with peanut as well. You want some grasses/near grains - panic grass and some prarie grasses work well for me right now, you might be able to get some orchard-types going, being north of me. Some people do well with vetch (I don't). I've tried planting various tuber types to break up my soils (carrots, radish, chufa this year) no luck so far (chufa goes in the ground this weekend). Sorrels and various brassica (mustards) can do well for you as cover crops. and if you can get a taller grain going in patches, it can provide some shade, hiding places, and vertical support for the vining/twining plants. I'm trying sorghum/sudangrass hybrid again, hoping the birds don't eat it all this year.

Basically, the more variety you can provide, the longer your effective pasture season, and the less the risk of nutritional imbalance. In a field full of corn, if the chickens get hungry, they are going to eat... corn. In a field that looks like a 15 ingredient salad, not only do they have more greens to choose from, but it will also attract more varied insect life....

The above is general rules of thumb. Mine is black, I have no more specific guidance to offer, not familiar enough with your soil, drainage, climate.

Thanks, U_Stormcrow. Of the seeds you mention, I know or have heard these grow here: vetch, sorghum, orchard grass (that's what our field was originally planted with 30 yrs ago, but whether we are successful at starting grasses is debatable); of course the clovers (we have a lot of that now already and I forgot they were legumes though I seem to know it fixes nitrogen),

All good, welcome to the chat. Yes, I suspect Harrell is available in North Alabama through Family Feed Store type operations, no, apart from rabbit feed, prices have been reasonably stable (though still much higher than pre-Pandemic). My local store uses feed as a (nearly) loss leader to get people in the door, they sell at about 5% markup after my bulk discount, compared to the usual 30% retail markup.

So I pay a little under $13 for "layer" and around $16 for my 24% game bird mix. I want to say Goat feed is running about $14 right now, and rabbit over $16. If I went up the road to by Tucker Milling's products, at another store, they are about $2-3 more per 50# bag. Harrell is highly processed, they use a significant amount of by-products to keep nutrition up and cost down. If that's a concern, you might want to consider Tucker Milling's NatureWise (or some word like that) instead.

I don't know your region, but the prices you suggest don't sound out of line.
As to forage, you want a couple legumes - I use a mix of clovers. You may have luck with peanut as well. You want some grasses/near grains - panic grass and some prarie grasses work well for me right now, you might be able to get some orchard-types going, being north of me. Some people do well with vetch (I don't). I've tried planting various tuber types to break up my soils (carrots, radish, chufa this year) no luck so far (chufa goes in the ground this weekend). Sorrels and various brassica (mustards) can do well for you as cover crops. and if you can get a taller grain going in patches, it can provide some shade, hiding places, and vertical support for the vining/twining plants. I'm trying sorghum/sudangrass hybrid again, hoping the birds don't eat it all this year.

Basically, the more variety you can provide, the longer your effective pasture season, and the less the risk of nutritional imbalance. In a field full of corn, if the chickens get hungry, they are going to eat... corn. In a field that looks like a 15 ingredient salad, not only do they have more greens to choose from, but it will also attract more varied insect life....

The above is general rules of thumb. Mine is black, I have no more specific guidance to offer, not familiar enough with your soil, drainage, climate.

Ty so much for the details on feed and forage. We were able to find the Tucker Milling product line in our area, by driving just a few more and for now bought a couple bags of the non GMO 16% layer mini pellets to start mixing in with their feed. Turns out both the Faithway and Tucker Mill are not too far from here, still in what I'd consider North Alabama.

I found myself at the store a bit confused on what type seeds to buy for the two purposes of a foraging area and sprouting for an Edible Acres type compost area. So we put off buying the clovers we almost had, to come home and read again. ( The seeds were pelletized and coated. I was expecting whole seeds. So that would be for planting a cover crop. )

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thanks, U_Stormcrow. Of the seeds you mention, I know or have heard these grow here: vetch, sorghum, orchard grass (that's what our field was originally planted with 30 yrs ago, but whether we are successful at starting grasses is debatable); of course the clovers (we have a lot of that now already and I forgot they were legumes though I seem to know it fixes nitrogen),

Ty so much for the details on feed and forage. We were able to find the Tucker Milling product line in our area, by driving just a few more and for now bought a couple bags of the non GMO 16% layer mini pellets to start mixing in with their feed. Turns out both the Faithway and Tucker Mill are not too far from here, still in what I'd consider North Alabama.

I found myself at the store a bit confused on what type seeds to buy for the two purposes of a foraging area and sprouting for an Edible Acres type compost area. So we put off buying the clovers we almost had, to come home and read again. ( The seeds were pelletized and coated. I was expecting whole seeds. So that would be for planting a cover crop. )

Nothing wrong with planting pelletized/coated "cover crops" if you don't mind what's used to coat them. Improves sprouting chances if the weather doesn't coooperate, may make them less attractive to passing woldlife - but at least knowing what's now available, you can do some research and try to figure out which will do best for you.

I planted multiple clovers, for instance. The good news is, they come into season at different times which extends my "peak" clover season. The bad news is that clover seeds are expensive for their coverage (as I'm sure you noticed). Virtually all the rerd clover I bought died - that was a wasted expense. The white did reasonably well, and the yellow clover only did will near vertical surfaces - mostly fences, a few taller plants. Knowing that, on my acres, I'd have spent more money on white clover, selectively planted yellow colver (instead of broadcasting a mostly flat field and./or waited till I had a more upright crop established before overseeding with the yellow...

Live and Learn / F around and find out.

 

[R Wind]

Nothing wrong with planting pelletized/coated "cover crops" if you don't mind what's used to coat them. Improves sprouting chances if the weather doesn't coooperate, may make them less attractive to passing woldlife - but at least knowing what's now available, you can do some research and try to figure out which will do best for you.

I planted multiple clovers, for instance. The good news is, they come into season at different times which extends my "peak" clover season. The bad news is that clover seeds are expensive for their coverage (as I'm sure you noticed). Virtually all the rerd clover I bought died - that was a wasted expense. The white did reasonably well, and the yellow clover only did will near vertical surfaces - mostly fences, a few taller plants. Knowing that, on my acres, I'd have spent more money on white clover, selectively planted yellow colver (instead of broadcasting a mostly flat field and./or waited till I had a more upright crop established before overseeding with the yellow...

Live and Learn / F around and find out.

This may be the wrong place to ask.

If I want a mix of seeds/grains for soaking and sprouting, adding nutrition to a compost pile, is it true that I can only buy big quantities of animal feed level seeds? I don't think we'd go through 50lb of several diff seeds each very quickly... and you do mention the date code on bags of feed. (I forgot to look at a date code when we bought yesterday. Longer shelf life, I assume, on whole grains compared to processed foods.)

I do buy our human grains and beans and such bulk in 50lb bags. I was thinking I could find someone to split some large bags with me.

I guess as I say that, I could make one big bulk buy of several animal grains, make a mix, and then vac pack them in mylar bags in smaller portions. (I know I can fit 6lb wheat or rye type berries in a 1 gallon mylar bag; I've forgotten exactly but it's only 3 or 4 lb oats as they are lighter weight. Hmm, in a 5 gallon bucket, over 30, maybe 34 lbs of wheat berries. 17lbs oats if I remember. That might be a more useable amt -- just open a bucket. And already in a storage container. )

I would have to figure out what they like to eat and then if I want to spend the storage space on animal grains for sprouting.

My spouse read that whole corn is good to add as an add'tl feed in cold months; but to use crimped oats in warm months - that person's chickens keep laying all around the year.

 

[Kiki]

This may be the wrong place to ask.

If I want a mix of seeds/grains for soaking and sprouting, adding nutrition to a compost pile, is it true that I can only buy big quantities of animal feed level seeds? I don't think we'd go through 50lb of several diff seeds each very quickly... and you do mention the date code on bags of feed. (I forgot to look at a date code when we bought yesterday. Longer shelf life, I assume, on whole grains compared to processed foods.)

I do buy our human grains and beans and such bulk in 50lb bags. I was thinking I could find someone to split some large bags with me.

I guess as I say that, I could make one big bulk buy of several animal grains, make a mix, and then vac pack them in mylar bags in smaller portions. (I know I can fit 6lb wheat or rye type berries in a 1 gallon mylar bag; I've forgotten exactly but it's only 3 or 4 lb oats as they are lighter weight. Hmm, in a 5 gallon bucket, over 30, maybe 34 lbs of wheat berries. 17lbs oats if I remember. That might be a more useable amt -- just open a bucket. And already in a storage container. )

I would have to figure out what they like to eat and then if I want to spend the storage space on animal grains for sprouting.

My spouse read that whole corn is good to add as an add'tl feed in cold months; but to use crimped oats in warm months - that person's chickens keep laying all around the year.

You're very last paragraph makes me cringe.
Almost all laying type chickens will lay the entire year their first year but then they molt and they stop playing each year.
Wherever she's reading this information she is not getting good information.
It is not true that you should add corn to a bird's complete balanced diet to keep them warm.
It does not work like that and unfortunately I just can't explain it any better than that at this time.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

This may be the wrong place to ask.

If I want a mix of seeds/grains for soaking and sprouting, adding nutrition to a compost pile, is it true that I can only buy big quantities of animal feed level seeds? I don't think we'd go through 50lb of several diff seeds each very quickly... and you do mention the date code on bags of feed. (I forgot to look at a date code when we bought yesterday. Longer shelf life, I assume, on whole grains compared to processed foods.)

I do buy our human grains and beans and such bulk in 50lb bags. I was thinking I could find someone to split some large bags with me.

I guess as I say that, I could make one big bulk buy of several animal grains, make a mix, and then vac pack them in mylar bags in smaller portions. (I know I can fit 6lb wheat or rye type berries in a 1 gallon mylar bag; I've forgotten exactly but it's only 3 or 4 lb oats as they are lighter weight. Hmm, in a 5 gallon bucket, over 30, maybe 34 lbs of wheat berries. 17lbs oats if I remember. That might be a more useable amt -- just open a bucket. And already in a storage container. )

I would have to figure out what they like to eat and then if I want to spend the storage space on animal grains for sprouting.

My spouse read that whole corn is good to add as an add'tl feed in cold months; but to use crimped oats in warm months - that person's chickens keep laying all around the year.

This is the right place to ask. Maybe anouther thread, but as its already been hijacked...
I buy in smaller quantities (usually) and make my own mixes. @# of this,, 5# of that, 10# of the other and usually put down around 25# a year, overseeding small plots to see what works. When I first started, and there was (MUCH) less established, I was putting down 25# of this, 50# of that, 10# of the other.

You absolutely can premix and store, if you have the room. Vaccuum pack and refrigerate if you can, maybe get two-three seasons out of it. If you have room to freeze, you can potentially get more time still, but it begs the question of whether or not you are actually saving money doing so, once you've figured out the cost to keep that mass frozen for that period, the labor, bags, and other equipment, and the opportunity costs of using that space for something else. I prefer to buy in amounts I expect to readily use, with a few exceptions (like Coriander - I can buy bulk Coriander much cheaper than I can buy the stupid seed packs at the big box store, and scatter it by the handful without thought. Not only does it make a lovely herb (Cilantro), but the seeds when ground are used in a lot of my cooking - so my 5# bag of Anthony's Coriander seeds stays in the back of the second fridge for a season - sometimes thrown at the garden, sometimes thrown at the pasture, sometimes thrown at the spice grinder. That's cost effective for me in ways a lot of other things aren't.).

 

[U_Stormcrow]

You're very last paragraph makes me cringe.
Almost all laying type chickens will lay the entire year their first year but then they molt and they stop playing each year.
Wherever she's reading this information she is not getting good information.
It is not true that you should add corn to a bird's complete balanced diet to keep them warm.
It does not work like that and unfortunately I just can't explain it any better than that at this time.

and agreeing with @Kiki , your spouse is getting advice from the ignorant - who are likely repeating something they've heard without understanding.

Laying all year every year has little to do with nutrition (unless its deficient), and most to do with ambient light levels (which can be artificially manipulated), breed, and age. For most birds, each year of production drops off to 70-79% of the year before - so a bird in its third year likely lays only about 1/2 as much as it did the year before. Most birds slow (or even stop) laying when they molt, and molting usually occurs after their first year-ish of adult egg production. You can delay this a bit, maybe get some extra months, via artificial lighting (one study of very, very many), but eventually biology makes demands the environment can't overcome.

That's why commercial egg producers are often "repurposing" adult hens that they have maintained with artificial lighting at their first adult molt, which can be anywhere between 16 and 22 months of age.

Re: Nutrition - corn has roughly half the needed protein to support an adult layer, and is across the board deficient on every key amino acid, mist vitamins, and almost all the minerals. Its inclusion in feed is as a source of Carbs (energy), because its cheap, because it has few anti-nutritional factors, and because its deficiencies aren't so horrific that they can't be compensated for by reasonable amounts of more expensive ingredients. Oats are only a little bit better, but are high in fiber and beta-glucans, neither of which are great for chickens.

The advice is similar to telling a human to eat more doritos (or marshmallows) to stay warm in winter - only chickens don't deposit fat as we do, so its even LESS effective than it would be in a human.

Chickens were fed corn in the winter 100+ years ago because it was cheap, stored readly, and was one of the few things available while people lived at essentially subsitence levels of nutrition for months - but mostly they culled their flocks to have far fewer mouths to feed.

If you want to keep chickens warmer in winter (and in your climate, its not even a concern), increase their protein content, cut their carbs. WHY? basic biology. Metabolizing protein for energy is inefficient - its MUCH harder than converting carbs. Animals are built to run on simple sugars for a reason. In biological processes, inefficiency is expressed as waste heat - only heat is what you are looking for here - its not "wasted".

Hope that helps.

Suggest the spouse gets an account here. We provide better advice. Oh, and we cite our sources!

 

[R Wind]

You're very last paragraph makes me cringe.
Almost all laying type chickens will lay the entire year their first year but then they molt and they stop playing each year.
Wherever she's reading this information she is not getting good information.
It is not true that you should add corn to a bird's complete balanced diet to keep them warm.
It does not work like that and unfortunately I just can't explain it any better than that at this time.

It's probably the way I said it. Is it true that corn heats up the digestion?