Creating buff laced wyandottes

[BodilJ]

Hey all
I am hoping to create buff black laced wyandottes, as I love the contrast of silver and black in the silver laced wyandottes, but unfortunately the breed standard for gold laced is a quite dark gold here in Denmark, so they loose that striking look. I could of course just select for ligher gold, but other breeders would probably sigh loudly and to be honest.. is it not too easy?! Buff laced wyandottes doesn't currently exist in Denmark, so I have to start from scratch.
Im new to chickens and their genetics, but Im very facinated by it and have had some genetics back in school, so I can understand it fairly well. My main problem is finding good information on the colour genes of chickens, the calculator is good for trial and error, but I miss some litterature on the subject. Any suggestions?

Anyway, at the moment I have a bunch of chickens in the following colours: Silver black/laced, solid buff, gold blue/laced (with black and splash in the mix of course).

As far as I can tell from the chicken calculator, my best bet is:
1st gen: gold black/laced rooster and buff hens
2nd gen: gold black/laced rooster and offspring from 1st gen (buff incomplete laced/half sprangled?)
3rd gen: buff black/laced rooster from 2nd gen, buff black/laced hens from 2nd gen (could probably use the lemons and reds as well, as long as I remove any gold offspring.
Even with 3rd gen being only buff parents, they would most likely be unstable for Mahogany and Dilute genes, and offspring would still come out buff, red, lemon and gold.
4th gen: New buff black/laced rooster, hoping for MhMh and DiDi, buff black/laced hens (unsure if I need new ones from 3rd gen only or use both the 2nd and 3rd gen buff black/laced?)
In time, it would get more stable (or set me back if I am unlucky and pick a MhmhDidi rooster)



I have 5 problems though:
1:According to the chicken calculator, Mahogany and Dillute are both dominant? Is there any colour difference in Mhmh vs MhMh and Didi vs DiDi, so I can sort for the homozygote individuals?

2: The E gene, general understanding of what it does.

3: Picking gold laced in the calculator gives 2 options: Blacktail or Sebright. I dont know which the gold laced wyandottes are? Genetically I see a difference in them, but the picture is the same.

4: E^Wh gene vs E^R gene. It appears E^R gives the stable outcome Im looking for, where as E^WhE^Wh suddently messes up the lacing? How is that? I assume my solid buff is E^WhE^Wh, but can I breed it out and keep the buff colour, is it visible?

5: Understanding buff, and keeping the quality: I hear its good to keep the roosters completely buff and hope for a little "pepper" in the feathers of the females, to stop it going too light? What is the genetics behind this?

Blood renewal would be the same all over again with a gold black/laced rooster or hen, with selection to stabilize Mahogany and Dilute genes.

My gold black/laced roosters all have comb fault (single comb), the splash are all female. I have 2 gold blue/laced to select from. If I pick one of those, Ill just add the blue gene to the mix, which can be bred out or left in. Im not sure I want to select for good blue along with everything else, so Ill probably end up breeding it out. Could hope for a gold black laced rooster to swap to for 2nd gen. I definitely dont want to get the single comb gene mixed in, its trouble enough in the gold flock, but Im aware there is a risk the gold blue/laced roosters carry it. Alternatively I can try to find a good gold black/laced rooster.

I tried the calculator with a silver rooster as well, but selecting out silver on top of everything else required some very high numbers as it hid any progress on Mahogany and Dilute. Maybe a buff rooster on silver hens could work for 1st gen, when I only keep the females.
What about a solid buff rooster on gold laced hens? Since it isnt sex linked genes Im working with..?

How am I getting on? Anything I totally missed? I have about 6 months to figure it out on paper before I get to the actual breeding

 

[CountryFlock]

Hi!
New calculator here btw!:
http://kippenjungle.nl/breeds/crossbreeds.html

1. I’m not sure of the real life results of Mh or Di being heterozygous.

2. E gene is dominant above all. Covers up all pattern and creates all solid hens and mostly covers up roosters.

3. For the two options of lacing it’s for lacing that’s partridge based (eb) or lacing that’s birchen based (ER). I’m also confused on what lacing the Wyandotte’s are based on. If someone can help with that.

4.
You can’t have complete lacing on a bird that’s based wheaten.
Yes you would have to breed it out. A tricky part.

5. I’ve personally never looked deep into buff genetics.

There are a large difference in genes that are used in making up the solid buff variety and the gold laced variety. This is what’s causing the crazy numbers in the calc of course. There’s like 5 heterozygous genes that could then go anywhere.

 

[BodilJ]

Im going to forget the idea about using silvers, I read somewhere, that they have a gene to suppress red. That could be an issue.
Thanks for the link, CountryFlock, now I have a new toy!
Yes, lots of stuff I still need to figure out, both about the colour solid buff and the effekts of the genes.

I think for 2020 Ill need a moderate amount of chickens, as all will be heterozygote anyway. I just need the type to stay as good as possible.
2021 though, I need as many chickens as I can manage as I need the rooster and hen(s) that are 1 in 128 chance of getting, where the wheaten is bred out and the lacing is homozygote. Some luck would be nice! I could make do with lemon or red, as long as the opposite gender has the missing gene, so that increases my ratio to 1 in 43. At least homozygote wheaten shows up as incomplete lacing.
For 2022, if I manage to get the birds I need in 2021, Id start getting mixed colours but with complete lacing, so they would start to look the part. From then on its hopefully more about perfecting and stabilizing. Id still need a good number of chickens, but not nessesarily as many as 2021.

Probably wishful thinking to have something to show for my trouble after 2 and especially 3 generations, but it keeps me hooked on the project!

 

[BodilJ]

So, I ended up with 3 buff hens, especially one showing some black on tail and wings. The one without a tail got too friendly with a turkey, it is growing back with no further plucking.
The rooster, a gold black laced, was not quite as good as I wanted, but they appear to be hard to come by..

Fertility has been fine, but only about 50% develop and hatch as they should, which is opposite of my other flocks, where nearly all fertilised also hatch. I can't figure out the problem, diet is the same.

Anyway, the first chicks are hatched, more to come in a week. They are so cute!

I'm so looking forward to these little ones to grow up, hoping for lots of females for next stage.

The rooster has been butchered, should hopefully get a much better one this year, now that I know to search early in the year.

I also have an option of adding a "too dark/patterned" hen or two from a yellow/buff black Columbian project. I'm debating if they would be a step back or not though in the 2021 breeding. With a better roster, I may have to redo the F1 generation.. or breed both F1 and F2 in 2021, using a rooster from the F2 for 2022 with more hens to select from than what I get this year.

First feathers

 

[YardMoa]

Laced Wyandottes are on the eb (partridge) e locus. I would use Buff Colombian with a laced rooster. They are both already on the same e locus (Partridge) and Co is a necessary gene for the laced pattern.

 

[nicalandia]

You are asking for alot of trouble by breedig self buff, you are introducing way too many genes you need to breed out, your best bet is gold laced blue/black rooster mated to silver laced hens, both have the same lacing genetics and as you know silver may hide gold diluters that will only help you dilute the gold to a lighter buff tone

 

[BodilJ]

Laced Wyandottes are on the eb (partridge) e locus. I would use Buff Colombian with a laced rooster. They are both already on the same e locus (Partridge) and Co is a necessary gene for the laced pattern.

That would definitely be ideal, I just didnt know of their existance until it was too late last year. Ill be getting some chicks this year sometime, then try with them as well. Ill probably end up with two lines and see which end up best.
Which e locus is the the regular buff on? How will it show up in the pattern when mixed with a single copy of eb?

You are asking for alot of trouble by breedig self buff, you are introducing way too many genes you need to breed out, your best bet is gold laced blue/black rooster mated to silver laced hens, both have the same lacing genetics and as you know silver may hide gold diluters that will only help you dilute the gold to a lighter buff tone

I have read that "self buff" a lot of times, what is the "self" about?

I know I probably am, but as far as I can tell, its be best way to eventually get a more stable colour. Am I wrong?
I must admit though, I need to find out more about the diluter(s) in the silvers. Which genes is that?

 

[YardMoa]

Self Buff is on the Wheaten e locus. Lacing does not show up correctly on a bird homozygous for Wheaten.
The crosses you just made (your F1 generation) Are split for every colour/pattern of the parents and the e locus. If you want to continue with them take the ones with the best overall type and breed them back to the parent with the lacing. About 25% of the offspring ( your F2 generation) will be on the correct e locus (Partridge).

Hopefully a few of those will be homozygous for one or two of the pattern genes you want.

 

[nicalandia]

When dealing whith silvers you may or may not be dealing whith gold diluters, but with self buff you will be dealing with the wrong e allel(lacing is best with eb, but self buff have wheaten instead which is the worst for lacing) you will be dealing with a gold enhancer and diluter(Mahogany & Dilute) also many lines of self buff have dominant white or splash to hide posdible peppering on tails

 

[BodilJ]

Self Buff is on the Wheaten e locus. Lacing does not show up correctly on a bird homozygous for Wheaten.
The crosses you just made (your F1 generation) Are split for every colour/pattern of the parents and the e locus. If you want to continue with them take the ones with the best overall type and breed them back to the parent with the lacing. About 25% of the offspring ( your F2 generation) will be on the correct e locus (Partridge).

Hopefully a few of those will be homozygous for one or two of the pattern genes you want.

If it was easy I wouldnt be interested! I know they are spilt for everything with a possibility that one of my hens have a single columbian gene (from dwarf wyandottes), as that was crossed into the buff line I got buffs from. So with that in mind, also a chance of an eb gene.
Interestingly I have 2 out of a total of 16 chicks with dark downs as day olds. I wonder what gene(s) they have. Both, I think, are female.
I know to sort for the best type in F1 and only keep females of course, breeding back to a gold laced rooster.
The resulting chickens though, Im in doubt what to look for, although I assume 50% will be ebeb. Trouble is to also bring both Mh and Di further, they are the whole point of the cross, so it will be a 1 in 16 chance.

Is it possible to find examples of what to look for?
Will ebeb Pgpg Coco Mlml show up as complete or incomplete laced, what would the faults be?
Versus ebeb PgPg Coco Mlml?
Versus eb eWh PgPg Coco Mlml?

Or even better, how does laced NOT show up right on eWh? Knowing that, maybe its easier to see the faults by knowing that..

I know my aim for F2 is ebeb Mhmh Didi, with any homozygote pattern genes being a bonus.