Crossbreeding dual purpose breeds for sustainable flock

[Ascholten]

Thank you for the reply. My thought process was, free ranging, they are getting a LOT of exercise .vs. being penned up, and the muscles growing a lot more, hence possibly tougher meat because of this. I was thinking of free range to help cut down on the costs to feed them a bit, then thought, well if it makes them tougher, is the trade off worth it? I don't want to be a cheap ass I want good tasting meat, which is why I am considering home raising to butcher .vs. store bought hormone mutants, but if the price is really negligible on FR vs Pellet Fed, then Id get the pellets just to keep them healthy / happy till their big day

THank you for the inputs.
Aaron

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

I don't have an answer for that. These are the first birds I'm raising for myself. One thing I can say is if you're going pasture based then that means work moving netting or a chicken tractor etc. At the very least training them to reliably come back to a coop at night and closing them up on time for predator protection.
On the other hand it's easy to have a coop etc and simply refill feeders and adding bedding, then clean it out after butchering. But feed costs money that you worked for doing something else.
In my opinion it's mostly about where you want to put in the work and doing what works best for you.

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Huzzah! I've either had a break through or I'm completely lost! Ok so do hens have very small wattles until they mature? Because I suddenly realized that the ones with the biggest and reddest combs also had big red wattles. And most of the ones with smaller or less red combs had very small wattles.

After looking for some more pictures I found this: blog post. Which seemed to go along with what I saw in the brooder and now. My birds are about 10wks old. Hatch dates March 29-31.

I'm going to try to grab and evaluate some of the FR cockerels to see how fleshed out they are. I want to butcher a few and see how soon I can do more. If I think they could gain more I'll feed them longer but the feed bill ain't getting no smaller at this rate

I'd like to try and estimate how many of the others are cockerels also. Based on my staring at them today I'm cautiously optimistic that there is lots of hens.

I think of the mixed ones, the big reds that are indistinguishable from the FR overall (I'm very glad I leg banded them!) I think one may be a pullet and the other four are cockerels. I need to get individual pics for your estimates of which breed and feedback of which to keep. One is a different color pattern and stands out but I'm not sure if he'll end up the best for the breeding project. They look basically the same size wise so I'll need to get my hands on them and weigh them. I'm going to try the 5gal bucket and hanging scale.

The rest of the mixed bunch, none that end up cockerels will stay. They are much smaller and lighter. I think brooder crowding affected the odds some but it's the best I could do this time. I'll definitely have to build some brooder hutches before doing hatching!

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

If they start laying at 20wks that puts them at mid August. I'm going to try to make it so I can separate the FR hens so I can start hatching their eggs, since I can't be sure how effective my restricted feeding is and if they'll live too long. As soon as the eggs are normal and not the wonky pullet eggs I want to start hatching them. Which means I also have to have the brooder hutch built and ready. Assuming they do start laying then, maybe start collecting eggs to hatch starting in September.. set the 10th, hatch the end of the month to Oct 1-ish. That would have the retained F1s maturing mid February. Giving me a whole summer of eggs and using those cross roos. I'm getting deja vu, I may have posted something identical many pages ago it all runs together in my head.

I would still like to get some of the NH line from freedom ranger hatchery. The last date for those is 10/6, I could probably adjust my hatching so I could use the same brooder. Now that I have some chick leg bands. Not when I'd like to be brooding but the maturity time would be great. I could probably make something work with a battery setup for the heat lamps. Hmmm..

I need to go back and review my own thread so I don't sit here doing the same math I already did... *face palm*

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Estimating I have about 30+ of the mixed left. I know what I had before they went outside but there was some losses then, and of course one was a day I was gone. So for sure numbers won't be til I do an actual round up. Based on what I was seeing I *may* (knock on wood!!!) not have alot of cockerels of the mixed bunch.

Will chicks from brahmas have feathered legs also? That would be a good way to tell at least those ones apart.

The FR are all pretty lively. They definitely are more bossy and pushy when feed goes down. I don't think I'll be able to watch the FR pullets for activity level until I butcher the FR cockerels. Then I can evaluate them more. Other than laziness I'm hoping I can tell who's getting too fat to be productive.
I also forgot about the salatin style pen. If I can get that built it would probably work as a brooder and to separate the FR hens and collect just their eggs for hatching.

 

[NatJ]

Huzzah! I've either had a break through or I'm completely lost! Ok so do hens have very small wattles until they mature? Because I suddenly realized that the ones with the biggest and reddest combs also had big red wattles. And most of the ones with smaller or less red combs had very small wattles.

Yes, you can use wattles as well as combs for sexing.
I often find it easier to tell by the wattles-- no idea why, but I tend to see the red or not-red more clearly there than the combs.

Will chicks from brahmas have feathered legs also? That would be a good way to tell at least those ones apart.

Yes, chicks from Brahmas will usually have feathered legs.

They should also have pea combs. They won't be the tidy little combs of pure Brahmas, but larger ones that often look rather odd. (The pea comb gene causes small combs and wattles when a chicken has two copies of the gene, but when a chicken only has one copy of the gene it just gets a sort-of tripled comb without the reduction in comb/wattle size.)

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thank you for the reply. My thought process was, free ranging, they are getting a LOT of exercise .vs. being penned up, and the muscles growing a lot more, hence possibly tougher meat because of this. I was thinking of free range to help cut down on the costs to feed them a bit, then thought, well if it makes them tougher, is the trade off worth it? I don't want to be a cheap ass I want good tasting meat, which is why I am considering home raising to butcher .vs. store bought hormone mutants, but if the price is really negligible on FR vs Pellet Fed, then Id get the pellets just to keep them healthy / happy till their big day

THank you for the inputs.
Aaron

My impression, as one who raises birds who free range (but understand, I've never raised "penned up" for comparison) and butchers his own is as follows:

1) Free Ranging cuts my feed bill 20-25% depending on season. I have a healthy, biodiverse, poly-cultural pasture and a long growing season - they don't lack for feed opportunities. I only feed once daily (in the evening) to get them to go to bed in the protected run with full crops, and motivate them to range in the mornings). Even so, they don't get the majority of their food from the pasture.

2) Free ranging slows weight gain, though they are seemingly eating more, in total, than a caged or penned bird. Its the exercise. (Based on comparison to weight gain postings from others here on BYC with similar breeds)

3) Fat is both decreased in quantity, and differently proportioned. I find less subcutaneous fat, and much less fat "padding" around the organs, and more intramuscular fat (based on renderings from making burgers and sausage). That's a flavor improvement, and helps to provide a sense of tenderness in spite of the additional muscle usage.

4) At a young age (9-16 weeks) I can't discern any difference between a boy chicken on the table and a girl chicken on the table. Both benefit from adding 5 degrees to the "target temperature" for doneness, 170 instead of 165, and the one tends to outweigh the other, but that's the limit of my impaired palate (long, irrelevant story - I can't "taste" much).

5) At much greater ages (8 months plus), there is a decided chew to the meat that makes it completely unsuited for roasting broiling, or grilling, which even long aging and acidic marinades (yogurt based, usually) can't turn "tender", and a stronger flavor which makes good background for curries and similar. Again, I can't tell a difference between boys and girls (its curry!) and haven't eaten many birds these ages - but none in the middle ground between 5 and 4.

And again, having not pen raised birds, I have no personal experience to set against my pasture/free range impressions. Take it with some salt, it definitely improves the finished dish.

 

[Brooks_]

4) At a young age (9-16 weeks) I can't discern any difference between a boy chicken on the table and a girl chicken on the table. Both benefit from adding 5 degrees to the "target temperature" for doneness, 170 instead of 165, and the one tends to outweigh the other, but that's the limit of my impaired palate (long, irrelevant story - I can't "taste" much).

To expand on that, I saw a cook/chef video that basically said 165 was done, but 185 was tender.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

To expand on that, I saw a cook/chef video that basically said 165 was done, but 185 was tender.

makes sense though - collagens don't start to gelatinize till almost 160, and store bought birds don't have lots of connective tissues so no need - but our backyard birds get more exercise, and like turkey legs at a renaissance faire, benefit from being treated a little more like b b q ribs or brisket than just pink pork. The extra 5 degrees before resting is a few more minutes for those collagens to become lip smacking good.

 

[Ascholten]

Feeding them at night. I see where it helps you, because it gets them in the pen, you might want to try the hand full of snacks trick. i grab a small handfull, just a large pinch really of scratch grains, click and they come running, throw it into the pen, they all run in after, then slide the door shut with them inside. I try not to feed them right before bed because they poop like hell all night then, and you got a bigger mess to clean up in the morning, vs. feeding them the majority of their meal in the morning early afternoon and they process most of it out by bedtime.

Full Crop is a Pen full of Slop, Throat all Narrow, Don't need the wheelbarrow

aaron