Denagard & Ivermectin- How To Do This

[jlwquilter]

The Denagard will arrive either today or tomorrow. I feel my hens are in a more susceptible situation to get sick because they’d been sick. 2 are on Tylan for CRD.

I have also seen behavior that could be signs of gape worm. Stretching the neck and gaping. Doing this for several times - but then the next day and days after that not doing it at all. It would be only 1 or 2 hens at a time. Then the next day they wouldn’t do it at all but another few hens would.

I gave each the ivermectin drops on the back of the neck Saturday. Tuesday will be 10 days. I treated them with ivermectin once about 2 months ago but didn’t not follow up with a retreat. I did not see any signs of worms or mites and lice but understand now that I should have retreated anyway.

I have read that ivermectin works great and also that it’s only really effective for mites and lice (I’ve checked them repeatedly and do not see any signs of either and I want to keep it that way!). So I ordered the Denagard. I also ordered yesterday Valbazen (I do not have a projected arrival time for that yet).

So what is the best action to take?
Give the ivermectin again on Tuesday?
Give the Denagard on Tuesday?
Give the Denagard as soon as I get it today or tomorrow?
Wait for the valbazen?

I’m most concerned about the possibility of gape worms, even though if they had it wouldn’t they gape all the time/every day and not just one day a dozen times? This behavior is working it’s way thru the flock.

Thanks for helping!

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I have also seen behavior that could be signs of gape worm. Stretching the neck and gaping. Doing this for several times - but then the next day and days after that not doing it at all. It would be only 1 or 2 hens at a time. Then the next day they wouldn’t do it at all but another few hens would.

I gave each the ivermectin drops on the back of the neck Saturday. Tuesday will be 10 days.

I have read that ivermectin works great and also that it’s only really effective for mites and lice (I’ve checked them repeatedly and do not see any signs of either and I want to keep it that way!). So I ordered the Denagard. I also ordered yesterday Valbazen (I do not have a projected arrival time for that yet).

So what is the best action to take?
Give the ivermectin again on Tuesday?
Give the Denagard on Tuesday?
Give the Denagard as soon as I get it today or tomorrow?
Wait for the valbazen?

I’m most concerned about the possibility of gape worms, even though if they had it wouldn’t they gape all the time/every day and not just one day a dozen times? This behavior is working it’s way thru the flock.

If they had Gapeworm, they wouldn't have symptoms for a day and then stop, they would be gaping, coughing, slinging their head, not eating/drinking, stretching the neck, etc. It would progressively get worse.

When you observed them stretching/gaping - was this during/after eating or drinking? Could they have been adjusting their crop?
Have you looked inside the beaks to make sure there's no canker, plaques or lesions?

As for the Ivermectin, If you started it, then you might want to finish the treatment. I don't believe that it will treat Gapeworm anymore but it should treat any lice/mites.
Valbazen is a good wormer for Gapeworm I believe you give it 3 days in a row. If @Eggcessive @casportpony or @dawg53 will confirm that.
Have you had a fecal float to check for worms? That may be a better thing to do since you have had so much going on. I don't think worming will necessarily hurt them, but you've had a struggle that last little while.

You have been dealing with respiratory illness, it's possible that the stretching could be related to that.

Denagard (Tiamulin) is used as a maintenance to help with symptoms of Mycoplasma, most give it for 3 days each month. You will want to sweeten it with juice, sugar or something like karo syrup since it's bitter.
The 2 that are still on Tylan, I would finish that up and see if they get better.

Just my thoughts. Hopefully the others will chime in.

 

[jlwquilter]

Hi! Thanks for your thoughts! I just found out about a animal hospital not too far from me. I have to go out this afternoon so I’m going to swing in there and see if they treat chickens and/or do fecal float tests. I agree it would be more than helpful to get some official diagnostics done.

Ok it’s not Gapeworm. I didn’t really think so but I’m rather paranoid at the monument. When you say you don’t think ivermectin treats Gapeworm anymore... because the parasite is resistant or ivermectin changed its formula?

I’m continuing the tylan on the 2 hens. However crystal who had it bad and was almost 100% better now has some placques on her throat. Is this the MG coming back? Do I treat with tylan again. Or go with the denagard?

 

[jlwquilter]

Is CRD caused by MG?
How do I tell MG symptoms apart from avian pox symptoms? Will a fecal test show if they have avian pox?

I’ve read too many threads here where a vet visit isn’t as helpful as you’d think it would be. I’d like to be as prepared as possible so I can ask the right questions or request the right tests.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Hi! Thanks for your thoughts! I just found out about a animal hospital not too far from me. I have to go out this afternoon so I’m going to swing in there and see if they treat chickens and/or do fecal float tests. I agree it would be more than helpful to get some official diagnostics done.

Ok it’s not Gapeworm. I didn’t really think so but I’m rather paranoid at the monument. When you say you don’t think ivermectin treats Gapeworm anymore... because the parasite is resistant or ivermectin changed its formula?

I’m continuing the tylan on the 2 hens. However crystal who had it bad and was almost 100% better now has some placques on her throat. Is this the MG coming back? Do I treat with tylan again. Or go with the denagard?

Is CRD caused by MG?
How do I tell MG symptoms apart from avian pox symptoms? Will a fecal test show if they have avian pox?

I’ve read too many threads here where a vet visit isn’t as helpful as you’d think it would be. I’d like to be as prepared as possible so I can ask the right questions or request the right tests.

Any way you can get photos of the inside of her beak. Some photos of Crystal are welcome too

Ivermectin has lost some of it's punch, so yes, imo, it's drug resistance.

If Crystal has had a full course of Tylan, I would try the Denagard. The plagues inside the beak could be from MG, canker or something else, it's really hard to know unless you have testing done.

You mention Avian Pox - are you dealing with Fowl Pox too? A fecal test will not test for Fowl Pox. Fowl Pox is a virus which is mostly spread by mosquitoes and other insects. MOST of the time you will have scabs lesions on the comb, face and wattles. There is a wet form of Fowl Pox too that produces lesions inside the beak, but generally, you will still have scabs/lesions on the outside too (face/eyes, comb, wattles).

"CRD" is MG (Mycoplasma Gallisepticum). As you have found birds can become symptomatic over and over. Testing, of course, is the best way to get confirmation that you are dealing with MG, but if this is what it is, your birds will have it for life.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps044

 

[dawg53]

I dont suspect you're dealing with a respiratory disease at all. The only symptoms you mentioned are neck stretching and gaping.
You're not dealing with gapeworms neither.
What I DO suspect what you're possibly dealing with is wet pox or canker. I suspect the latter, canker. The reason I suspect canker is that it is spread more rapidly to other birds than wet fowl pox and normally through protozoa contaminated waterers.
This is also why your birds are shaking their heads and neck stretching, the lesions infect esophagus, mouth, trachea, crop, larynx and other areas. Neck stretching in order to breathe, head shaking to loosen lesions and expel lesions which doesnt work at all.
Smell the breath of your worst head shaking bird. If there's a foul odor, it's canker. If there's no foul odor, it's wet fowl pox. Let us know the results, take a good whiff.

 

[jlwquilter]

Hi. I’m back home so I can read and take pics, etc. First off, as always, I REALLY appreciate the time and effort you guys are putting forth to help me. I hope it’s helping others too.

I think I need to start at the beginning as fowl pox does enter the story very early on. I’ll keep this a telegraphic as I can.

I started acquiring the chickens mid-March thru mid-April. From various sources but all ‘regular people’. Everything was great. Everyone got along. Everyone that was old enough to lay laid. Heaven.

Then Sicilia got sick. That's when I came searching on BYC for information. I concluded that she had fowl pox, then wet fowl pox based on her symptoms (raised black spots on comb, eye swollen shut, difficulty breathing. She didn’t have any beak lesions). We had had recent heavy rains and it suddenly got hot. Mosquitos. We have water all around us, much of it standing. Nothing we can really do. We nursed Sicilia back to health over 2 weeks by forcing food and water and vitamins. It worked and she returned to her zippy self. She even laid an egg after several weeks. Thrilled.

I read here that I could expect the fowl pox to slowly work its way thru the flock.

I got 10 hens on May 1.The new hens were a distressed/rescue situation. All but one was in heavy molt. Many still laid however. Integration went ok, pecking order fights over 2 days but nothing crazy. Basically the new girls won top positions. Everybody laid well for several days. Then egg production dropped like a stone. I put it down to the stress of the integration.

Roosting was crowded, I didn’t have enough ventilation where they roasted and to add more dumb to it, I put in a layer of leaves under the roosts. I realized and fixed that mistake about 5 days after I made it.

 

[jlwquilter]

OMG - the page reloaded and I lost all the rest I typed, including the corrections in the above post. Grr.

 

[jlwquilter]

Now I have all these laying hens except only getting an egg or 2 a day. So I think worms! I treat everyone with Ivermectin. Fast forward - no sign of worms in poops and I forget to retreat cause the shtuff starts hitting the fan.

It is doing the Ivermectin that learn that Penny has lost a lot of weight. I think I knew (hard ot remember exactly) she had the beak lesion but I thought it was a symptom of the fowl pox. And although I could see her ‘eating’, I didn't realize that she wasn’t actually able to keep the food in her mouth to swallow. So Penny went on to hand feeding and getting water. Also right about then Crystal’s side of face swelled up A LOT and she had a much worse black lesion inside her beak. I posted about these on BYC as I had joined by then and was desperately seeking information.

This is when I learned about CRD/MG and their symptoms matched that - as well as the circumstances of crowed roost, the wet leaves, not enough ventilation, etc. I hunted down Tylan and got it and treated the whole flock. This only about 2 1/2 weeks ago.

Break - I have to go lock up the chickens!

 

[jlwquilter]

Do armadillos eat chickens? I rousted one in the shed next to the chicken area (they are protected by electric fence and within that it is further predator protected but still.... makes me nervous. DH will have to scout that out when he returns home Friday).

Spending so much time with the flock doing the Tylan dosages I noticed things were off. The 2 groups didn’t interact - they had their territories. Problem was the new group had the main food and water in their control. I added 2 more water pans to the run where the original group hung out. I now think food access was much more limited than I thought at the time. The original group got the evening feed and had all of the large run to forage in but I don’t think it was enough food overall (more on this in a minute). I now think flock stress was very high. There was bullying but nothing crazy it seemed. The weather also got very hot very quickly. More stress. My youngest pullet died - this is 11 days ago. That really shocked me and shook me to my core. I think it was stress more than anything.

The very next day - last Tuesday - I was doing morning chores and heard a fight. One of the RIRs had cornered Buffy (old leader) and was going at her even though she had assumed a total submissive posture. I broke it up. Less than 10 minutes later I hear the commotion again. This time 3 RIRs and a leghorn had Buffy surrounded. Buffy once again totally submissive. That broke me. I put all 3 RIRs in jail. Then added the 4th to keep them together. I gave the leghorn a pass but have since revoked that - she’s in jail for feather picking and being mean for no reason other than she can be.

The very next day I started the Corid treatment because I thought I saw evidence of coccidiosis. Honestly I’m not sure now that I did but at a minimum it counts as a preventative. Also that same day (last Wednesday) with the RIRs in jail, the original flock is eating and drinking their heads off. And Thursday I have so much poop in the morning.This is a large part of the reason I think the food and water (even though there were water pans everywhere) access was much more limited than I thought. I’d say the flock felt calmer too but that could be me projecting. I moved the RIRs and several other hens onto a friend who wanted to start his own flock. During this Penny and Crystal seemed to have fully recovered. Egg production sky rocketed. Less hens, more eggs.

Next Sicilia developed the gunk in her eye - I posted about that. Seemed CRD/MG flare up. Treated her with Tylan again, ordered Denagard, and while I at it I ordered Valbazen too. She seems much improved.

Posting this so I don’t lose it.