Dying left and right

[TxYeti_hunter]

@2ndTink
Okay, starting in May/June I started having chickens dying almost every day or other day. Some started out struggling to walk and then unable to walk at all. I initially suspected Mereks. I took one chicken to my local vet and had them send her off for a necropsy at Texas A&M. The only answer I got back was it's not Mereks.

Fast forward to know. I have had MULTIPLE birds randomly die. Some without any symptoms at all and some with symptoms that mimic Mereks.
We have a new symptom of white, watery, diarrhea. I mean WHITE, pure liquid.
I did have a rooster (he is the large rooster in the necropsy) sound like he had a rattle when he would breathe but NEVER showed any symptoms of anything respiratory. No eye bubbles. No snot... Nothing.

I took 3 roosters in to A&M, myself, to be euthanized and necropsied. I will attach the report and see if anyone here might have any REASONABLE ideas. I have done soooo much research and I am at a loss.
Here is what we do know... It's NOT Mereks, Avian Influenza, or Mycoplasma.

The are doing a histopathology but I won't have those results for a while.

I have a hen that is showing signs that she doesn't feel well and my favorite rooster has a "rattle" now but NO other respiratory symptoms (makes me think it could be cardiac related ). He is separated from the flock though whatever is going on, everyone has been exposed for a long period of time.

I am at a loss and desperate. I had to restart my flock last year due to mycoplasma the year before. I sanitized and waited for 4 months before starting over.

I have dewormed my flock since finding out about the roundworms.

 

[nuthatched]

Sorry to hear about that.
What's their diet?
Housing?
Any chance they're finding something toxic or moldy? Plants, poison, compost?

 

[TxYeti_hunter]

Sorry to hear about that.
What's their diet?
Housing?
Any chance they're finding something toxic or moldy? Plants, poison, compost?

They free-range. I have ~20 chickens living between 3 coops. They eat Big V layer crumbles (no reports of others having any issues with this feed). They do get treats (hen scratch) in the afternoon. I give 4 scoops for them to share (~ 4 cups). I clean the coops, at bare minimum, every 3 days but most of the time I do it daily or every other day.
I do compost but it is mostly the poop from their coops and it is rare that I see them in it. I don't have any toxic plants that they can access, not to mention nothing is growing right now.
It is an enigma and a nightmare.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

The only answer I got back was it's not Mereks.

I took 3 roosters in to A&M, myself, to be euthanized and necropsied. I will attach the report and see if anyone here might have any REASONABLE ideas.

Sorry for your losses.

The report shows kidney disease/damage, cardiomyopathy (heart) and worms (Ascarids).

How old were these roosters when you started feeding layer feed?

You dewormed - with what, the dosage and duration?

One rooster it was also noted, very thin. Cut out scratch, focus on them eating a nutritionally balanced poultry feed, perhaps feed an All Flock type feed instead of a layer feed. I'm not sure how long it would take excessive Calcium in the diet to cause kidney damage. There are other things that can cause kidney problems too - infection, toxins, etc.

Maybe switch brands of feed?

 

[TxYeti_hunter]

I just dewormed yesterday with Safeguard. I believe the dose is .25/lb according to my vet.
The scratch is a treat that they get. It's about 4 cups, total, between all of my birds and has black soldier fly larvae mixed in with it. It probably amounts to around a tablespoon per bird when all is said and done.
I don't know why high calcium would affect only a few of my chickens ( though I can see why it would impact my roosters).
I do use a different feed periodically. I would think that if the feed was the cause, more people in my area would be having similar issues (I live in an area with a small population but a LOT of poultry).

The rooster that was emaciated had been in isolation as I attempted everything possible to save him. He was still eating and drinking but could not walk at all. It was a last ditch effort on my part. He was the worst of them all which is why I had him necropsied.

I'm honestly at such a loss. I will switch back to an all flock but I fear so many have such significant kidney damage at this point that it may not help.

 

[NanaK]

Welcome to BYC!
I am very sorry for your problems. I'm sure it's very frustrating. I hope you find the answer.

Just some thoughts to consider about feed and scratch.

Toxins can be present in feed and grain that you may not see with your eye. They can cause kidney damage leading to death.

Do you check the date on the feedbags where you purchase the feed and scratch? Do you buy a large supply at one time?

I mostly use Nutrena feeds and the company recommends it to be used within 4 months of the date on the bag. Sometimes the store does not propery rotate stock so I dig through and get the best date I can.

Storage also matters. How do you store your feed and scratch?
It needs to be stored cool and dry. No rain water or condensation on the containers they are stored in.

 

[TxYeti_hunter]

Welcome to BYC!
I am very sorry for your problems. I'm sure it's very frustrating. I hope you find the answer.

Just some thoughts to consider about feed and scratch.

Toxins can be present in feed and grain that you may not see with your eye. They can cause kidney damage leading to death.

Do you check the date on the feedbags where you purchase the feed and scratch? Do you buy a large supply at one time?

I mostly use Nutrena feeds and the company recommends it to be used within 4 months of the date on the bag. Sometimes the store does not propery rotate stock so I dig through and get the best date I can.

Storage also matters. How do you store your feed and scratch?
It needs to be stored cool and dry. No rain water or condensation on the containers they are stored in.

Those are good points and good questions.
I actually don't usually check the dates but our local store goes through feed pretty quickly and gets a new delivery every week to two weeks.
I buy 2 weeks worth of food at a time.
I store in what looks like white trash cans with a latching mechanism (made for feed).
They are stored outside (because I don't really have another place to store them) but they stay dry inside.
I try to keep their feeders clean as well because I live in East Texas (it gets very humid in the summer).
I clean and change their water at least every other day.
I am suspicious of the Black Soldier Fly Larvae but everything is just a guessing game at this point.

 

[NanaK]

I just dewormed yesterday with Safeguard. I believe the dose is .25/lb according to my vet.

You will need to repeat this in 10 days.
Are any of your birds molting?

The scratch is a treat that they get. It's about 4 cups, total, between all of my birds and has black soldier fly larvae mixed in with it. It probably amounts to around a tablespoon per bird when all is said and done.

I agree with @Wyorp Rock this is a lot of scratch.
I believe there are 16 tablespoons in 1 cup.

I would reduce the 4 cups to maybe little more than 1 cup and not every day. They get to free range so they are finding lots of treats on their on.

Until everyone was healthy I would just give feed and let them free range.

I actually don't usually check the dates but our local store goes through feed pretty quickly and gets a new delivery every week to two weeks.

I think I would start checking dates on the bags.

At my local feed store old bags are sometimes topped with new bags. If the stack gets low, I've seen bags over 1 year old on bottom. Remember it can also sit in a store room before it's on the shelf. Temperature variations from mill to truck to storeroom to shelf can sometimes cause moisture.

I store in what looks like white trash cans with a latching mechanism (made for feed).
They are stored outside (because I don't really have another place to store them) but they stay dry inside.

I once noticed condensation on the outside of my feed bin. The night had been cold but temps came up quickly that morning. That caused the moisture. Watch for temps swings causing condensation on the bin. I had to move the bin.
You also don't want the sun to shine directly on the bin.

I am suspicious of the Black Soldier Fly Larvae but everything is just a guessing game at this point.

Any particular reason you question the Soldier Fly?

I am in eastern NC. I feel your pain about humidity and heat. These can certainly affect feed quality.

 

[Folly's place]

All good points already mentioned here. The old feed and too many goodies (how old were they?) does really matter. Consider talking to the veterinary poultry expert at Texas A&M about all this, and maybe, depending on that discussion, contact the feed manufacturer about having the feed tested.
And how old are your dying birds? Nearly none will hit ten years of age, but many young birds getting sick is not normal.
Our feed is in large metal garbage cans, in the original feed bags, in the coop out of sun and weather. And we feed within two months of each bag's mill date, and use an all flock feed.
Heavy metal testing is expensive, but at least having eggs from several different hens tested as a batch of one for lead is not a bad idea either. We did it and found no lead, wonderful!
Mary

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I just dewormed yesterday with Safeguard. I believe the dose is .25/lb according to my vet.

Safeguard is a good dewormer.

As @NanaK mentioned, if you are treating Roundworms Only, then you'd repeat the treatment in 10days. Most people give for 5 consecutive days, this will "treat" most all worms that poultry can have except for Tapeworms.

Very good suggestions from everyone so far. How frustrating this must be for you to not get clear answers, even with necropsy.

Break down each symptom/finding down into "pieces". And begin addressing each one but also look at all of them as a whole too - what condition can cause what symptom(s)...it can be like a puzzle.

You know you can address/treat the worms, so good, You are doing this - you have a piece already. So, what symptoms can worms cause?
IF there's a heavy infestation, then you may want to offer a good probiotic after treatment to help soothe and restore the gut.
I might would also be inclined to administer and antibiotic to help with inflammation and infection due to infestation or for at least those that are showing marked declined, just to see if that helps. Worms/parasites can cause damage and birds may be more susceptible to Enteritis. If you have a vet you can bounce these thoughts off of, it would be good.

Thank you @NanaK for clarifying feed. Toxins, Mycotoxins/Aflatoxins can definitely cause some issues. While a brand of feed and its analysis may be very good, sometimes grains can contain toxins that cause issues (liver/kidney mainly).

I understand you have been doing a lot of research and trying to figure all of this out. It can take a lot of digging and reading and often we still cannot come to a conclusion.
Sometimes the best you can do is change one thing at a time, if possible, get some more testing and continue with the research/reading.

Hopefully some of the things that have been discussed will help you renew your research or point you in a few directions that you have not thought of.

Here's some info on Mycotoxins
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...y/mycotoxicoses-in-poultry#Etiology_v87244107
https://poultrydvm.com/condition/mycotoxicosis


Kidney disease:
https://backyardpoultry.iamcountryside.com/feed-health/avoiding-kidney-damage-in-laying-hens/
https://klybeck.com/renal-diseases-...and-role-of-phytogenics-with-inorganic-salts/