Egg binding and calcium

[Chicken Lass]

Hello. Here's an update on what Sheila had wrong. I got the results back from the lab, and it turns out that it was a lack of calcium problem. Apparently Sheila died of egg binding because of this. So the yellow diarrhea was a result of the egg binding. I'm going to have to get busy getting calcium back into my flock before they get to where Sheila was. I never knew that a chicken's diet was so critical. I'm giving them oyster shells, laying pellets, yogurt, and possibly calcium powder to put in their water.
Thanks to those who replied - you were right on the egg thing. Even though I've fed my chickens laying pellets faithfully, I guess the amount of scratch I gave to them messed things up. Hopefully after a while of feeding them the right way, my hens will start laying again and feeling better.

 

[threehorses]

Yes - and I'm not surprised, but still sad to hear it. I'm still so very sorry.

One of the reasons that on my first response to you I said I wanted to rule out shell-less eggs because of calcium issues was because of this. I wish I had pushed the point but it is hard to tell from a distance some times. This is very common.

Just remember - calcium absorbtion is like a three legged stool.

The three legs are calcium, D3, and phosphorus. They must be in balance with one another to keep the stool standing.

As most chicken diets are cereal based, phosphorus deficiency is rarely a problem. More often it's a problem of there being too much. If there is too much phosphorus in the diet (as in too many grains in the diet) then the body takes calcium away to balance the phosphorus. It can do this from the egg making process, and usually does first. Survival > egg laying. Eventually the body removes calcium from the bones even to the point where their beaks become rubbery (if the bird doesn't die before that point).

D3 is also important. It's usually provided for in sufficient amounts in a properly stored feed used within date. However, it is an oil vitamin and as such will degrade (as all vitamins do but particularly oil-vitamins) from feed that is stored improperly at any point - from manufacturer to the house. When you buy feeds, always check the date on the end tag of the bag to make sure the bag is fresh. Then when you open the bag, it should smell strongly of fresh ingredients. If it doesn't, then it's a little older. IT should never smell like nothing or cardboard. Then it must be stored in moderately cool conditions in an air-tight and dark container. Poultry owners should aim to use their feed within a month.

Sometimes birds need a little more to make up for a higher calcium need. IN such cases, using an oil type of vitamin supplement in small amounts can help. Oil vitamins are easier to overdose than water ones as they store in fat - so you should always be careful not to over do it. I like a little fortified (ade) wheat germ oil occassionally in heavy laying flocks and/or new layers. I will also give yogurt for its D and calcium content (as well as the beneficial living bacteria) as a treat to heavy layers and new layers.

Sunshine is also important, and light, as that helps convert the vitamin D into the correct form for calcium absorbtion enhancement.

And of course there's calcium.

All laying hens should be fed a diet that consists of a minimum of 90% completely fortified laying pellets or crumbles. The other 10% can be grains, treats, etc. Do this unless you're trained in the intricacies of feed design, mineral/vitamin interrelationships and dynamics, protein squares, etc.

An average animals' calcium requirements are 2 parts calcium to 1 part phosphorus (2:1 cal/phos ration). Laying feed is designed for laying hens with an average 6:1 cal/phos ration. However, some hens need more calcium in their diet... even up to 15:1. Putting a 15:1 cal/phos ration in a laying mash for an average flock could be problematic to the mor normal hens who on average need closer to 6:1. So instead, we offer oyster shell as it's a bioavailable source of readily dissolved calcium. THAT is why we offer grit and oyster shell both - because grit doesn't provide calcium (it's not soluble enough), and oyster shell is too easily dissolved to serve grit needs.

Hens have an instinct for providing for their extra calcium needs and will eat the oyster shell from a good oystershell/grit mixture (in a separate container from but near feed, please).

Where there is a situation where a hen is critical, laying shell-less eggs and missing eggs more than once, correcting the above sometimes isn't enough for the first day. It's important not to force-overdose calcium - but in a hen with highly suspected calcium deficiency, it's a common practice to add some sort of calcium powder to their diet for a day or two to get them on track. Continued problems would be best served by consulting a vet to test calcium levels - an avian vet, certified. But a concerned poultry owner can indeed use a powder. Some folks will even crush a half a tum's tablet into the ration or a quickly eaten damp mash for a day. This can't be used repeatedly (if repeated calcium supplementation is needed, a vet should subscribe) but it can help in a pinch.

In cases where soft shell eggs or missed laying schedules in a non-molting bird happens, always make sure all three legs of the stool are in correct proportions. It is indeed crucial. Hopefully this bit of information will help others, as you kindly have done by sharing the results of your dear Sheila's tests. Thank you so much for that!

 

[rc-worth]

Threehorses and Chicken lass,

I'm wondering if this is what's wrong with my girl?? I posted her situation last week but didn't get a reply. If you have any time I would really love it if you could let me know your thoughts. I will paste my previous messages below. As you'll see, she seemed to be feeling better but now when I got home today she is lethargic again. I'm not sure what to do . . . . Thank you in advance!!

Rachel

Hi,

I would love some help with this . . . . One of our 5 girls is not feeling well. She is a 16 month old Barred Rock. Normally very friendly and active. I first noticed something amiss when I went out last night to lock the coop and she was in the nest box. Not normal. I reached under her to collect the other eggs and there was wet egg-insides in the box. No broken shell. I looked at her vent and it looked like there was an egg on the way out. I decided to leave her alone for a little while to see if it sorted itself out. When I came back the egg still appeared to be part way out. I touched it and it was soft and didnt feel well attached so i pulled a little and off came half of an empty soft egg. I think it was just stuck to her bottom. Today she is very lethargic. Just stands or lies around. Spent some time in the nest box this morning but nothing. She did come down for a little oatmeal but only a little and then wandered off and back up to the nest box. When I checked on her later there was a soft-shelled empty egg on the ground outside of the coop and she is just hanging out outside. Alert but not scratching or moving around much. I saw her poop and out came some runny, very bright green stuff. We have noticed several soft shelled eggs over the last few months but were not sure who they belonged to or what to do about it. I also found egg insides (no broken shell) in the nest box a few days ago. We give them organic layer pellets, barley, oats, oyster shell, grit, kitchen scraps, sour milk and yogurt which they love but maybe is not good??, oatmeal with codliver oil and molasses, and put apple cider vinegar in their water. Our white leghorn's eggs have what look to be calcium deposits on their shells. A few of them have some broken roughed up looking feathers (including the sick one). I have been checking for mites and lice but havent seen any. Will do a more thorough check when i have help later today. We have not been able to move their run recently (due to lack of space) and I am afraid maybe the ground is sour. have been noticing more flies. There is also a large flock of sparrows that have been hanging around. I'm concerned about parasites, etc. Should I lime the run and dig it up a bit or rototill? Also, yesterday the neighbors were felling some trees for half the day which was upsetting to the girls. Maybe this had an affect? But she is probably the one who had been laying the other soft shelled eggs so whatever the problem is probably didnt start yesterday.

also, we have never wormed them. I just saw her poop again and just a little runny white bile looking stuff. From not eating enough? I tried to feel for impacted crop but don't know if i could tell the difference. hers is slightly harder than the others which are round and squishy like a water balloon. still not doing much but did peck at one of the others when i was checking her crop for comparison. Jealousy? She has always done this so nice to see a little spunk and normal behavior.

Thats all of the info i can think of that might help. She is a really sweet funny girl. I don't want her to die. I hate this. Any advice much appreciated.

Thanks!

Rachel

update later that night:

last night we looked at her vent again and saw a bit of what looked like soft
shell sticking out. we werent sure but decided to pull and out came probably the
other half of the soft shell i found the other night. guess is was the right
thing to do because she immediately perked up! started foraging, scratching,
etc. we made her a mix of hard boiled egg, water, and yogurt that she gobbled
part of and then moved on to a cucumber. this morning she came out and flapped
her wings, made a gigantic poop and ran after me like usual. I'm not sure that
she is 100% but certainly MUCH better!!

so what was the problem and will it happen again? i'm assuming the stuck soft
shell made her feel so uncomfortable that she didnt want to eat or move around
much. but why couldn't she pass it herself? and why is she making soft shells?
we give them oyster shell. maybe she doesnt eat enough of it or enough pellets?
we checked them pretty thoroughly for lice and mites and couldn't see any.
ideas?

 

[verlaj]

I am wondering if I have the same problem with one of my hens. Started a new thread today - got a suggestion from speckledhen (thanks!) but still wondering if calcium deficiency is the trigger and the cure? My thread is here:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=221035

Wondering about the calcium after reading the saga of Sheila and threehorses' posts, because all of the chickens are getting chick starter/grower now, plus some scratch to make friends with the young ones.

Here's my original post:

One of my older hens, a GLW age 4-5 years, seems to feel bad this morning. She didn’t scamper out with the others when I opened the coop door this morning, and hung out by the waterer. I noticed a little “plop” of yellow with mucus nearby, and she has some yellow residue on the feathers under her vent. She is in good weight – not fat – and her feathers are sleek and shiny. She was feeling well last night – out foraging and ate layer crumbles. I don’t see anything wrong with her vent, felt her abdomen and it does not feel abnormal but she grunted and there was a little rumbling, like gas moving inside, when I did that. I brought out some hard-boiled egg to offer her and she had left the coop but was quietly off by herself. She ate HB egg readily. I don’t know if she is laying – don’t monitor the individual hens for that.

Here’s the environment:
9 older hens (1 age 7, 8 ages 4-5).
38 young chickens, 9 hatched here and 29 from Ideal, all hatched in May this year. None are laying yet – too young.

All housed together in an open air coop with sand floor at night, loose in a fenced yard during the day, and the GLWs, including the pokey one when she feels good, hop the fence and free range at will. All get to free range the last couple of hours before dusk.

Food: Everyone gets starter/grower with amprolium. Gradually have been switching over to Blue Seal (20% protein) from Purina (18% protein). Older hens get offered Blue Seal layer crumbles when they hang out at the barn, where the young birds don’t go. Have been giving scratch in the evening – about a 16 oz cup full for all 47 chickens, to get the young ones friendly and to enjoy their company in the evening. The hens do get a bigger share than the young ones. Have been putting crushed egg shell where the hens tend to hang out without the “kids” to give them extra calcium since they are not getting much layer feed right now. (I saw on another post this morning that you should give oyster shell, not egg shell, for calcium. This was new information for me – if anyone knows why, please explain.)

Occasionally see a “leathery” shelled egg. I do not know who is producing these.

Everyone else is well.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[threehorses]

Goodness, I'm sorry the two of you had problems getting answers. I'll check your separate thread, verlaj, and answer there. And RC-worth I'll look at yours and see what we can come up with.

For sure, verjal, I can see that if you see leathery eggs, then I'd definiltely move everyone who lays up to laying feed, give oyster shell, and try making a quickly eaten wet mash for just the laying girls with a couple of tums tablets crushed into it. I don't recommend this often as too much calcium is as bad as too little. But it sounds like the GLW really needs the calcium. With her, because you see the yolk on the feathers, I'd consider giving her a gentle flush with cool clean water to try to make sure that all the yolk is out. I would keep her up and separate so that she gets food and mostly so you can monitor her droppings.

On the oyster shell, it's very bioavailable and absorbable. Egg shells have never been recommended by things like poultry texts for calcium, and I feel it's because the calcium isn't as bioavailable as the oyster shell which so readily dissolves within the bird. So personally I'd offer them all the oyster shell, which you can serve with the grit that all free range birds should get (no matter the environment). The girls can and will figure out which to pick from the grit/oyster shell. I just pour one on one side, the other on the other side of the same container.

As for the ill hen... I'd give her 1/2 a tums crushed in the feed, and then offer her and the others the oyster shell as soon as you can get it. You might want to offer just a bit the first day to keep the girls from really hogging down a good amount as they sometimes tend to do. But do get their attention there - perhaps throw a few bits of scratch into the container (literally a very few) so that they investigate.

In the mean time, on the ill hen, after doing a gentle flush with the cool water to wash out any remaining yolk, watch her. Retained egg or shells can cause peritonitis so you will want to keep and eye on her. Penicillin can be helpful for that - injectable or oral (I prefer injectable because it's less hard on their digestive tract bacteria). So you might want to have some on hand just in case. Feed stores sell it from their refrigerators. It requires a larger gauge needle because of the thickness of the penicillin solution. A needle that is 18 gauge is thicker and better for pen than 25 gauge. 3 cc syringes are fine.

I'll post this on the other post as well so the same information is at both places.

 

[verlaj]

Thanks for your time and thoughts!

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
OK I posted a reply to you - a bit different than verlaj - at your post at https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2619059#p2619059 .

 

[Chicken Lass]

Hi Rachel.
My chickens were doing the same sort of things yours are. I found a lot of egg residue in their nesting area, and especially my hen Rosin was laying shell-less eggs. Sometimes they would just go and sit in the nest box and not lay anything. Frances was laying really huge and long eggs for a while - very abnormal looking. Now only two of my six hens have been laying at all. So at least I haven't been seeing any more egg yolks without shells. I'm hoping they'll be back to normal soon now that I'm feeding them right. So maybe your chickens have what mine have - except to me it looks like you feed them right (oyster shells, laying pellets, etc.). My problem I think was that I wasn't giving them enough oyster shells and too much scratch. Threehorses is ausome! I bet you'll find great advice from threehorses. Hope your flock gets better and the problem is easily fixed!